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Meshtastic: An open source, off-grid, decentralized, mesh network

meshtastic.org

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Re: Meshtastic: An open source, off-grid, decentralized, mesh network

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, neither Yggdrasil nor Pinecone have any concept of “the Internet”. A peering over the Internet is fundamentally the same as a local peering taking place over something like Wi-Fi or Bluetooth and they are not treated preferentially or handled differently. Both protocols are also designed with mobility events in mind and measure far better than many other routing protocols on route convergence in highly m…

Do you have any examples of their mobility event handling? I'm reading the documentation for Pinecone and don't see much. Even Pinecone says Yggdrasil's spanning tree isn't good enough: "However, the spanning tree topology alone is not a suitable routing scheme for highly dynamic networks." [0] I'm reading that as why Pinecone has the virtual snake topology. But they define that as a public key-based routing, which d…

Most of the mobility testing has been performed either in the meshnet-lab[1] or the pineconesim[2].

As the original author of that documentation, it's quite entertaining to have it quoted back to me. :-) In any case the routing "prefers" links labelled as the internet when there is a tiebreak between two peerings between the same pair of nodes, i.e. you are connected to some other device via Wi-Fi and Bluetooth simultaneously.

And while it is true that Pinecone cannot necessarily always make the best routing decision based on public keys alone, aggressive queue management attempts to provide the best QoS for all flows and it scales very well because nodes maintain only a small amount of state about their position in the spanning tree and their position in the SNEK. Importantly, shortcuts can and often are taken when Pinecone switches to tree-based routing as the geometric distance to the destination on the tree is evaluated at each hop. Routing "by the SNEK" is used primarily to find the remote node and as a fallback in case the tree routing fails.

[1] https://github.com/mwarning/meshnet-lab [2] https://pinecone.matrix.org or https://github.com/matrix-org/pinecone/tree/main/cmd/pinecon...

Re: Meshtastic: An open source, off-grid, decentralized, mesh network

#72
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me too. I think the way forward--at least for now--is not large meshes, but partition tolerant apps. A search for "Is Taco Express open right now?" should not resolve a globally unique name to a globally unique address and then ask some distant server which will then ask for your location info so that it can figure out which taco express you mean. That's so fragile. Instead the search should propagate through whichev…

honestly i think the main obstacle to global mesh is the lack of a good business case, which is pretty intrinsic to the format. mesh makes it possible to remove almost all intermediaries, so its difficult to position a company in a place where they can capture a significant portion of the generated value. even though a global self-organizing comms network can clearly be seen as a net good. which is basically an echo…

Agreed on all points.

> its difficult to position a company in a place where they can capture a significant portion of the generated value

That's why I want to make the change. Companies tend to wane in trustworthiness over time, but maybe not if they were painfully aware that their relevance depends on explicit trust configs which could be altered by the end user at any moment and with minimal pain on the user's part.

Eventually things will get bad enough that a market emerges for businesses that create handcuffs for other businesses... the spiritual successor to VPN's or somesuch. Until then, it's hobbyist stuff.

That, or it'll be the big solar flare which gives first-mover-advantage to whoever can better operate in the aftermath. But until then... still hobbyist stuff.

Re: Meshtastic: An open source, off-grid, decentralized, mesh network

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any examples of their mobility event handling? I'm reading the documentation for Pinecone and don't see much. Even Pinecone says Yggdrasil's spanning tree isn't good enough: "However, the spanning tree topology alone is not a suitable routing scheme for highly dynamic networks." [0] I'm reading that as why Pinecone has the virtual snake topology. But they define that as a public key-based routing, which d…

Most of the mobility testing has been performed either in the meshnet-lab[1] or the pineconesim[2]. As the original author of that documentation, it's quite entertaining to have it quoted back to me. :-) In any case the routing "prefers" links labelled as the internet when there is a tiebreak between two peerings between the same pair of nodes, i.e. you are connected to some other device via Wi-Fi and Bluetooth simul…

Thanks, looks interesting for sure, I hope to be proven wrong!

Re: Meshtastic: An open source, off-grid, decentralized, mesh network

#74
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Never ask a woman her age, a man his salary Wee bit sexist... EDIT: Yes I know it's a proverb, I'm not blaming the parent post. EDIT: 4 downvotes? Nice.

It’s a saying

Some sayings are sexist.

Re: Meshtastic: An open source, off-grid, decentralized, mesh network

#75
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Never ask a woman her age, a man his salary Wee bit sexist... EDIT: Yes I know it's a proverb, I'm not blaming the parent post. EDIT: 4 downvotes? Nice.

It’s a saying

That actively reaffirms sexist beliefs and worldviews. Has no place in a public forum where it can and does get interpreted as such.

Re: Meshtastic: An open source, off-grid, decentralized, mesh network

#76
post #54

It says it only scales to 80 nodes, so sounds like you won't find a mesh to join unless you make it yourself and it can only be people you know. I want a global mesh network to replace the internet

Me too. I think the way forward--at least for now--is not large meshes, but partition tolerant apps. A search for "Is Taco Express open right now?" should not resolve a globally unique name to a globally unique address and then ask some distant server which will then ask for your location info so that it can figure out which taco express you mean. That's so fragile. Instead the search should propagate through whichev…

> We need context addressing and pub/sub, not server addressing and request/response. It's going to require a pretty big conceptual shift. Sadly, I don't see that shift happening until some disaster convinces us that it's necessary.

Just my 0.02$ but I don’t see this happening. One, the content rights of media would preclude meaningful distribution and content addresses of commercial media, which is what most care about. After 2023, I think it’s far more likely that generalized human knowledge is captured in an LLM to (somewhat accurately) spew out. That LLM would be distributed and localized - Google already wants to ship a small LLM on each phone.

I also don’t see global pub/sub - I think that’s just too many trade-offs for real use cases. Latency/partition-ability etc. I do see everyone’s smarthome/phone ecosystem providing a basic and localized event service.

The pendulum does seem to be swinging back to local-first, but I think that will mean personal-scale not web scale.

Re: Meshtastic: An open source, off-grid, decentralized, mesh network

#77
post #17

Has anyone deployed and used a system like this here? If so, what was its purpose and why this technology over others?

Preppers use it as a backup communication channel. The scenarios are: 1. Your country is invaded, and you are building a resistance. 2. Your government becomes a dictatorship. You want to fight back. 3. Natural disasters: the grid and mobile network are down. You want to organize and work together to help each other. Meshtastic nicely blends into the existing IoT LoRa traffic. And give you some sort of invisibility.…

It's been a while but I can remember going to sport events where the local cell network could not cope with the traffic. Calls wouldn't connect and SMS were delayed.

These would also be handy in construction when you're deep in the bowels of a new building and can't get any reception whatsoever (cell, CB, etc.)

Re: Meshtastic: An open source, off-grid, decentralized, mesh network

#78

We used it at Burning Man in 2023. Burning Man is hard on gear and a surprisingly busy RF environment. It was reliable and has a good user experience. I really liked it.

I've also used it then, it worked fairly well but it seems that I might need to tweak it to update my position faster.

I also made a fork of a modified firmware that gives you your playa location

https://github.com/exadeci/Meshtastic-device-bm

Re: Meshtastic: An open source, off-grid, decentralized, mesh network

#79
post #54

It says it only scales to 80 nodes, so sounds like you won't find a mesh to join unless you make it yourself and it can only be people you know. I want a global mesh network to replace the internet

If you're interested in large meshes, check out wirepas, though it's based on 802.15.4 rather than LoRa.

I was a Product Manager for a mesh based personnel tracking system on construction sites. We licensed Wirepas's tech for our solution... wound up learning a lot about the nuances of meshes.

Re: Meshtastic: An open source, off-grid, decentralized, mesh network

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Preppers use it as a backup communication channel. The scenarios are: 1. Your country is invaded, and you are building a resistance. 2. Your government becomes a dictatorship. You want to fight back. 3. Natural disasters: the grid and mobile network are down. You want to organize and work together to help each other. Meshtastic nicely blends into the existing IoT LoRa traffic. And give you some sort of invisibility.…

It's been a while but I can remember going to sport events where the local cell network could not cope with the traffic. Calls wouldn't connect and SMS were delayed. These would also be handy in construction when you're deep in the bowels of a new building and can't get any reception whatsoever (cell, CB, etc.)

These are the scenarios I was looking for. Thank you.

The extreme event scenarios have pretty obvious applications but are also very rare.

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