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JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames

avherald.com

161–170 of 515 posts

Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames

#161
post #117
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are huge numbers of opportunities to trade off inconvenience against reduced death. For example, we could prohibit radios in cars because the music and adjustment can be distracting and lead to collisions. Or ban cars entirely since they're much more dangerous than walking and public transport. We could require everyone to wear an N95 all winter. Ban phones for the entirety of the flight, and prohibit books as…

The inconvenience vs risk threshold here is similar to bucking a seatbelt which is hard to argue is a poor investment. Aircraft may be very safe on a per mile basis, but those risks are extremely concentrated around takeoff and landing. Which are fast events, so the risk per second is relatively high even though flying is generally much safer than driving.

> The inconvenience vs risk threshold here is similar to bucking a seatbelt which is hard to argue is a poor investment.

It really, really is not. Seatbelts actively prevent injuries from sudden violent phenomena. "Paying attention" does absolutely nothing to reduce the forces you are subject to in the event of, say, a collision with a Dash 8 that was on your runway at landing. It helps post-incident at best.

And I have "paying attention" in quotes because I feel like people are ignoring how attention actually works when they propose things like this. Human brains actively reroute focus in response to stimuli - like, say, a collision with a Dash 8 that was on your runway at landing. That's the whole concept of "a distraction". Hell, just a car braking particularly hard is stimulus enough to capture its passengers' attention, to talk of a plane landing going wrong in such a catastrophic manner. By the time the cabin crew is even ready to begin an evacuation, whether or not a person was fiddling with their phone (or just staring into space) some seconds before the incident seems highly irrelevant.

Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Passengers were using their phones during landing (including at least one that posted footage from inside the plane on social media), so...no? Incredibly, people can walk and chew gum at the same time. This includes the ability to refocus their attention when they experience unusual events.

You're allowed to use phones during landing; they don't present much of a challenge for evacuation. You're not allowed to use laptops or have the tray down.

You're not allowed to use laptops or have the tray down because those are active physical hazards even in fairly routine landings not because of some nebulous idea of you being "distracted".

Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames

#163
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AF358 was engulfed in flames with-in three minutes (180s): * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5jSyaj_JwE * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_358 The FAA mandates that aircraft are able to be evacuated with-in 90s: * https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/... Even for something as big as an A380 in its 800+ passenger configuration: * https://www.flightglobal.com/airbus-a380-evacuatio…

I think maybe you're under the impression that: 1. Passengers on JL516 were not permitted to use their phones during landing. 2. I'm proposing that we start allowing them to use their phones. 3. If we did that then all 379 passengers would have died [1] because evacuation would have taken longer than the time before the plane was engulfed in flames [2] Except #1 isn't the case: passengers were allowed to be on their…

> And even if we had granted #1 and #2 I don't see how you get #3 because even if the extra time were entirely eaten up by 30 distracted passengers this wouldn't get you 100% dead:

You are right that it does not necessarily follow that 100% would be dead. AC 797 had a flash fire after 90 seconds, and only about half the people died. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Canada_Flight_797

Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a car autopilot system that good on the market that only you know about? And that can replace the driver completely?

Waymo is safer than a human driver already. https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/googles-waymo-safe... Of course there will be locations where humans are required, but we can already start using computers in those locations where they perform better.

Where I drive daily I constantly have to make decisions which no self-driving car system I know about can possibly do. They don't foresee upcoming gridlocks caused by you driving completely legally but blocking (again, legally) a car from crossing to a side road, that car again blocks the car behind it, which blocks the car in front of you from doing a left turn, which means that you can't move and unlock the gridlock. That's just one on my commute. Then there's driving uphill on snow, seeing a person walking on the other side of the road and a car coming in the other direction. You foresee that this car will have some problems braking for that person (which would be the normal procedure - I'm coming the other way, that car shouldn't try to pass the person). So, what I do is to slow down and give that other driver confidence to pass. And sometimes I have to do the other thing - speeding up a bit in order to create room for another car to let that car avoid problems (if I were a computer I would have no reason to think about that).

This is also something happening all the time where I drive. And tons of other understanding-the-traffic cases.

Self-driving systems only follow the rules. That is not sufficient. When general artificial intelligence eventually arrives - that's when we get self-driving cars better than humans, in any other cases than for trivial cases. And yes, computers could drive cars in trivial places, it's just that those places are pretty much non-existing where I live and drive.

Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames

#165

Definitely better links than Daily Mirror out there, avherald.com unfortunately overwhelmed, but in terms of discussion: - Crazy how well the carbon fiber A350 held up given that it seems to have landed pretty much directly on a Dash 8 (RIP Coast Guard team). Looks like trading long term flammability for initial rigidity lived up to the design intent. - Excellent evacuation job, especially as it looks like on some vi…

Re clearance/cause: VASA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fItu5qM7QfE also couldn't make it out, but it sounds like the Coast Guard Dash 8 got a not really perfect taxi instruction (neither "hold short" nor "line up and wait") to one of the other C* intersections leading onto 34R while a Delta flight occupied C1, but entered the runway anyway. The A350 got a proper clearance it read back correctly.

Also looks like all C hold short lines have embedded guard lights - ie the stop "bar" on the way to the runway should have been flashing brightly.

* https://www.anaas.ana-g.com/img/business/general_aviation/pd...

Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames

#166
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are huge numbers of opportunities to trade off inconvenience against reduced death. For example, we could prohibit radios in cars because the music and adjustment can be distracting and lead to collisions. Or ban cars entirely since they're much more dangerous than walking and public transport. We could require everyone to wear an N95 all winter. Ban phones for the entirety of the flight, and prohibit books as…

In this case, however, the impact is knowable: https://etsc.eu/increasing-the-survival-rate-in-aircraft-acc... Furthermore, distracted or unprepared passengers impact the evacuation of others trapped behind them. I’ve participated in evacuation training for flight attendants and have personally witnessed how a bungled jump down evacuation slide led to a 5-10 second delay. This was equated with ~20 fatalities due to s…

I'm curious what the relevant part of that article is? As far as I can tell the only pertinent reference to passenger behaviour is the listing of "Passengers' knowledge of safety procedures and their motivation to get acquainted with them" as a factor in evacuation, which...does not really have anything to do with whether the passenger is "distracted" at the moment of an incident occurring.

I feel like people are equating "not paying attention" (which, what does that even mean for a passenger in a jetliner? not paying attention to what?) with "unpreparedness" when that doesn't really make any sense.

Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames

#167

This is why you follow cabin crew instructions and DO NOT CARRY YOUR LUGGAGE out of the aircraft in an emergency. Your luggage is not worth more than a fellow passengers life. Contrast this with evacuation footage of western passenger planes..

Ok, I watched a video somebody else linked.

People don't act at all the same after getting crashed into by another plane, barely making it to the ground in a plane filled with smoke and fire, as they do when those things haven't happened?

You don't say.

Would you say it's a good idea to throw yourself tumbling down the emergency slide and sprint away from the plane if those things hadn't happened?

This is not even a remotely helpful comment.

Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames

#168

Does this mean when the Airbus landed, there was a Coast Guard plane on the runway? Seems like the ground control had made a serious mistake.

Ground control wouldn't have cleared them to hold short, or to position and hold (US: "line up and wait"). That would have been the tower, not ground. Ground is only responsible for taxiways, not runways.

The Coastguard plane was cleared to hold short at C2, but entered the runway instead from C2 as if cleared to position and hold (Edit: Or maybe they thought they were cleared to take off, but that's far less likely).

Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames

#169
Could the accident be linked to the clarity of radio instructions? I saw a discussion suggesting the DH aircraft might have been unsure about the correct runway to use, C1 or C5.

My aim isn't to critique the English proficiency of non-native speakers, especially those from non-Proto-Indo-European linguistic backgrounds. As a non-native English speaker myself, I understand the challenges.

However, I found it trully hard to comprehend the airport's side of the communications due to heavily accented and unclear pronunciation. Shouldn't there be a greater emphasis on air traffic controllers improving their English skills, since English is lingua franca (pun intended) of aviation.

Or perhaps this is irrelevant, considering aviation's global nature. Are pilots expected to adapt to and understand communications with strong accents?

Re: JAL A359 at Tokyo collided with Coast Guard DH8C on runway and burst into flames

#170
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Excellent evacuation job While there many silly reasons to force people to shutdown electronics and such on planes, I think forcing people to not have any distractions during take-offs and landings is a good thing. Over 50% of incidents (fatal and hull loss/non-fatal) occurring during landing: * https://accidentstats.airbus.com/statistics/accident-by-flig... * https://www.1001crash.com/transport-page-statistique-lg…

Over 50%, sure, but 50% of a very small number. How many deaths do you expect keeping passengers from being distracted at these times would prevent? (I expect if you compare that to the number of people inconvenienced by the rule it's a terrible trade off.)

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