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Sony software updates breaks movie theater projectors

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Re: Sony software updates breaks movie theater projectors

#101

Post by waiwai933 »

userbinator wrote: post #94
throwawaymedic wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ohh this has already started. Happened to me the other day: machine for rectal air insufflation under x-ray guidance to allow reduction of an intussusception (a condition where the bowel folds in on itself). It primarily affects young children and if the procedure fails they require an open operation. Failure to treat the intussusception eventually results in bowel perforation, peritonitis and potentially death. Went…

It was (and probably still is) quite common to hire a cracker to remove the DRM from industrial equipment software to prevent any downtime it causes; of course that's not a life-support application, and the motive was that downtime for such machinery is often very costly. Of course with the recent Polish train debacle ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38788360 ) stories of DRM schemes where incomplete defeat cau…

Can you share/link to any stories of the first? I've never heard of it before and would be keen to read more on it.

Re: Sony software updates breaks movie theater projectors

#102

Post by joseph8th »

swells34 wrote: post #70
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sony is a Japanese company but it's also a multinational company consisting of hundreds of companies they aquired over the years all over the globe. It's therefore a relatively small chance is has something to do with Japan specifically.

It likely depends on where the programmer who has the original cert issued was... so quite likely Japan, given the evidence

This is the most likely, yup. The certs are unlikely to have a precise end-of-year expiration. It will be whatever the expiration is for the last certs loaded.

10 years in cinema IoT, here. Features are encrypted by Key Delivery Messages (KDM), and those are per cinema server/projector "marriage". No KDM will be considered valid if the server certs are expired.

This should make 2024 interesting for me.

Re: Sony software updates breaks movie theater projectors

#103

Post by Maxious »

sschueller wrote: post #63

I wonder how much longer until we have a military or medical device that doesn't work killing people because a DRM certificate expired...

> Why Repair Techs Are Hacking Ventilators With DIY Dongles From Poland

https://www.vice.com/en/article/3azv9b/why-repair-techs-are-...

Re: Sony software updates breaks movie theater projectors

#104

Post by shkkmo »

coder543 wrote: post #83
userbinator wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO a certificate that expires at the same time as the copyright on a film, and DRM that then "fails open", makes the most sense.

Okay, then I set the date on my computer to year the 2124. Now the DRM is unlocked! You can't build a "time lock" with just encryption primitives. Even if you could build a time lock with just encryption primitives, we don't know when the copyright will expire until the original author has died, since copyright term is life + 70 years. Someone would have to run a server that specifically chooses to start serving the…

> set the date on my computer to year the 2124. Now the DRM is unlocked!

It's the same. "Fail closed" means you can "just" set the system time to be before the expiration date, "fail open" means you can just set the system time to be after.

Either way, having an expiring decryption key is just security theater that harms users.

Re: Sony software updates breaks movie theater projectors

#105

Post by happyopossum »

lancesells wrote: post #20

Is there something where a projector needs to be connected to the internet? This seems as silly as bluetooth speakers like Sonos needing an internet connection. Perhaps someone can share what is needed here and why it's connected.

> as silly as bluetooth speakers like Sonos needing an internet connection

Where are you getting your information? Sonos speakers that support bluetooth don't need an internet connection to use bluetooth. They only need an internet connection when you want them to stream music from the internet.

Re: Sony software updates breaks movie theater projectors

#106

Post by joseph8th »

542458 wrote: post #44
buro9 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIUC, movies are delivered to local storage via the internet, and those files are heavily DRMd, the DRM is checked synchronously when films are played.

That sounds roughly correct based on when I worked at a theatre, although back then they mailed you drives. Worth noting that the movies are encrypted and you only get decryption keys at release. But Sony hasn’t made projectors in a while. I suspect this was something like an expired certificate rather than an actual software update.

It hasn't changed much. Most features are still delivered on drives. They're just too damn BIG otherwise.

Keys are sent separately, and are valid only for a certain date-range, and for a specific cinema server. In this case, Sony servers only work with Sony projectors, and vice-versa. Each device has its own certs, but for encrypted feature encoding, the standard is Key Delivery Messages, which unlock the feature Digital Cinema Package (DCP). DCPs are a general purpose cinema package, and is also used to deliver unencrypted clips like ads and trailers.

But the key is the Key. It's only valid for the specific cinema server, and the cinema server is "married" to the projector by encryption. This protects against on-site MITM attacks.

If there's a server update that doesn't update the certs on either the server itself, or the projector (in Sony's case), then the marriage breaks, and the silver screen stays dark.

Nothing anyone else can do about it, either, since any valid certs would have to be issued by Sony, and nobody has the private keys except Sony.

Re: Sony software updates breaks movie theater projectors

#108

Post by simcop2387 »

thomaslord wrote: post #93
sprocket35 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The studios set the requirements. A certificate that never expires would never fly with their need to control DRM as tightly as possible. If Sony was still in the business, they would offer a certificate renewal for a small fee like the other manufacturers have done. The root problem is that Sony exited the market and left a lot of cinema owners out to dry with the looming cost of $50,000+ per auditorium for replacem…

Any idea if these projectors could be made to work with other sources that don't require DRM? As much as this sucks for movie theaters, it could also be the deal of the century for a home theater build if you know the right people...

I don't think you'd want to pay the power bill for one, nor would you want to have a large enough screen to not have it burn your retinas. That said I believe some of them do allow that (no clue what models or availability) since you can rent out theaters to play games on your own computer or console, https://www.cinemark.com/private-events/gaming/

Re: Sony software updates breaks movie theater projectors

#109

Post by joseph8th »

lancesells wrote: post #20

Is there something where a projector needs to be connected to the internet? This seems as silly as bluetooth speakers like Sonos needing an internet connection. Perhaps someone can share what is needed here and why it's connected.

No, the projector is never connected to the internet. It's connected to a cinema server. In the case of Sony, it's always a Sony server. This is not usually connected to the internet either. Instead, the usual topology is to have a Theater Management System (TMS) that pre-ingests content in the form of Digital Cinema Packages (DCPs) and then propagates it to each auditorium's server.

This TMS is also not connected to the internet in most cases. Digital cinema is locked down tight as an ATM. Most theaters have pretty meager on-site IT, so email and thumb-drives and hard-drives still rule.

I work in cinema IoT including KDM and DCP delivery and ingestion to TMS or cinema server, and our solution is to have a separate agent inside the private cinema network that can broker communication with cinema devices like projectors, calibrators, and audio processors. Some of these have their own UIs in the local network, or if you've got the company VPN, but in general for monitoring we just rely on SNMP or server API.

The cinema servers are different. They all have APIs that provide varying levels of monitoring, control, and automation for the server, itself, as well as connected devices including limited monitoring and control of projectors and audio. They all support RDP or VNC, so if you're behind the same firewall you can get to their UI. Same with TMSes... they have UIs that you can access remotely, if you're on the company VPN.

But the projector itself? Never on the internet. It's "married" to the cinema server, and will only work with that particular server, based on their respective certs.

In Sony's case, it sounds like the projector certs have expired, so now they are invalid when used with the updated server certs.

Re: Sony software updates breaks movie theater projectors

#110

Post by joseph8th »

idlephysicist wrote: post #98
aaron695 wrote: post #84

Lots more info here on the Y2K24 bug - http://www.film-tech.com/vbb/forum/main-forum Expired cert. Some players refuse, some ignore it. Affected - Sony (XCT-M10) / GDC SR-1000 - "15-08-2011 18:10:59 UTC 31-12-2023 00:00:00 UTC (expired)" There was a known Y2K24 bug that needed software updates to fix around certs, unsure how/if related - http://www.film-tech.com/vbb/forum/main-forum/26517-dolby-do...

I love that the forum where that discussion is taking place doesn't even use HTTPS.

The cinema industry in general is woefully way behind the curve in some respects... Cutting edge in others (like security).
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