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Compare Google, Bing, Marginalia, Kagi, Mwmbl, and ChatGPT

danluu.com

331–340 of 493 posts

Re: Compare Google, Bing, Marginalia, Kagi, Mwmbl, and ChatGPT

#331

I really don't understand why anyone writing articles about ChatGPT uses 3.5. It's pretty misleading as to the results you can get out of (the best available version of) ChatGPT. For comparison, here are all the author's questions posed against GPT4: https://chat.openai.com/share/ed8695cf-132e-45f3-ad27-600da7...

It's a bit hard to use for most, either $20/month fixed for a limited # of messages, or you need to be able to reason through how to get an API key, or get another 3rd party service with similar cost & limits.

IMHO TBF the "limited # of messages" is continously increasing, to the point I hardly remember it exists these days

Re: Compare Google, Bing, Marginalia, Kagi, Mwmbl, and ChatGPT

#332
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In particular I block Youtube, not because they aren't sometimes correct, but because I don't want videos polluting the regular results - it just takes too long to get info from videos. Funnily enough, lately I've been prioritizing YT videos more when searching. So many sites now are just regurgitated SEO farms with minimal quality, and easy to see why: it's minimal effort to produce and cheap to host. But making a…

That's curious, I generally hate video due to inability to glance over content, and the few attempts I made to actually find useful information I searched for resulted in... spammy extra low effort video content that did not answer my questions.

Depends on what you’re looking for. A blog post about how to play Search and Destroy by The Stooges is not as useful as a video of James Williamson himself showing you the riffs!

Re: Compare Google, Bing, Marginalia, Kagi, Mwmbl, and ChatGPT

#333
post #50

Try uBlacklist, it's like uBlock, but for search results. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/ublacklist/ https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/ublacklist/pncfbmia... You can sync the settings and your personal blocklist to either Dropbox or Google Drive. It also has the ability to subscribe to blocklists. Mind, you need to manually turn on search engines and subscribe to lists. The uBlacklist subscript…

This is a feature of Kagi already. You can promote or blacklist domains in your search results.

Kagi is just the best, it feels like Google did before a decade+ of enshittification and ad tech.

Re: Compare Google, Bing, Marginalia, Kagi, Mwmbl, and ChatGPT

#334
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have some tips for finding concise videos that answer the question you are asking? I am finding more and more obvious LLM bullshit in results, so I am willing to try some other tactics. But I am not ready to spend the minutes watching videos to see if it is actually relevant or a waste of time, always artificially long to increase ad revenue.

For me, it really depends on the type of video. For fixing cars, I'm usually looking for something specific enough that there isn't a lot of chaff. It was probably recorded and edited on a phone just to splice the clips together. Probably the default thumbnail that youtube extracted from the video. For product videos, if Project Farm did it, look there first. Otherwise, I look for someone has a lot of videos for comp…

I don’t know much about fixing cars, but yeah, YouTube is a treasure trove for tacit knowledge.

Re: Compare Google, Bing, Marginalia, Kagi, Mwmbl, and ChatGPT

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a good illustration of my frustration with this discussion: I don't think search has gotten bad, I think the web has gotten bad. It's weird to even conceptualize it as a big graph of useful hypertext documents. That's just wikipedia. The broader web is this much noisier and dubious thing now. That's bad for google though! Their model is very much predicated on the web having a lot of signal that they…

On the one hand, I'm not sure the data corroborates that. If this is a web problem and not a search engine problem, then I'd expect every search engine to have the same pattern of scam results. I'd also argue that finding relevant results among a sea of irrelevant results is the primary function of a search engine. This was as true in 1998 as it is today. In fact, it was Google's "killer feature", unlike Altavista an…

If the web is being polluted by a nefarious search engine provider that is excluding the polluted pages from their algorithm, you wouldn't see the same pattern across search engines

Not saying or even suggesting that's happening, but the logic isn't airtight

Re: Compare Google, Bing, Marginalia, Kagi, Mwmbl, and ChatGPT

#336

Can someone tell me why Bing, and thus DDG, has switched to prioritizing local results? I'll search the most inane things, like lyrics to a song, and get results for local businesses containing maybe one word in common. It's most frustrating with phone numbers. I picked up the habit of searching the random numbers that called me, to try and find out if they were possibly important. I used to get a bunch of spam sites…

Nearly every local search is a leading indicator of buying intent and, therefore, is worth more money when served as a response instead of an authoritative response.

Re: Compare Google, Bing, Marginalia, Kagi, Mwmbl, and ChatGPT

#337
post #277

I really don't understand why anyone writing articles about ChatGPT uses 3.5. It's pretty misleading as to the results you can get out of (the best available version of) ChatGPT. For comparison, here are all the author's questions posed against GPT4: https://chat.openai.com/share/ed8695cf-132e-45f3-ad27-600da7...

> I really don't understand why anyone writing articles about ChatGPT uses 3.5. Because that’s what most people have access to. It’s absolutely worthless to most readers to talk about something they’ll never pay for and it’s not the job of random third-parties to incentivise others to send money to OpenAI. What I really don’t understand is why anyone gets so hung up about it and blames the writer. If you’re bothered…

> Because that’s what most people have access to.

I’d agree with this rationale if the author clearly communicated their choice of model and the consequences of that choice upfront.

In this post the table of results and the text of the post itself simply reads “ChatGPT” with no mention of 3.5 until the middle of a paragraph of text in the appendix.

> It’s absolutely worthless to most readers to talk about something they’ll never pay for and it’s not the job of random third-parties to incentivise others to send money to OpenAI.

The “worth” is in communicating an accurate representation of the capabilities of the technology being evaluated. If you’re using the less capable free version, then make that clear upfront, and there’s no problem.

If you were to write an article reviewing any other piece of software that has a much less capable free version available in addition to a paid version, then you would be expected to be clear upfront (not in a single sentence all the way down in the appendix) about which version you’re using, and if you’re using the free version what its limitations may be. To do otherwise would be misleading.

If you simply say “ChatGPT” it’s reasonable to infer that you’re evaluating the best possible version of “ChatGPT”, not the worst.

Accurate communication is literally the job of the author if they’re making money off the article (this one has a Patreon solicitation at the top of the page).

Whether or not "most readers" are ever going to pay for the software is totally orthogonal.

If using GPT4 vs 3.5 would create results so distinct from one another that it would serve to incentivize people to give money to OpenAI, well then that precisely supports the argument that the author’s approach is misleading when presenting their results as representative of the capabilities of “ChatGPT”.

> What I really don’t understand is why anyone gets so hung up about it and blames the writer.

Again, if they’re making money off their readers it’s their job to provide them with an accurate representation of the tech.

> Anecdotally, I find this excessive fawning about 4 VS 3.5 to be unwarranted. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38304184

Did some part of my comment came across as “excessive fawning”? Regardless, if this “excessive fawning” is truly unwarranted, this would again undermine your statement that using GPT4 would “incentivize others to send money to OpenAI”.

In regards to your link, I’ll highlight what another commenter replied to you. What should ChatGPT say when prompted about various religious beliefs? Should it confidently tell the user that these beliefs are rooted in fantastical nonsense?

It seems in this case you’re holding ChatGPT to an arbitrary standard, not to mention one that the majority of humanity, including many of its brightest members, would fail to meet.

Re: Compare Google, Bing, Marginalia, Kagi, Mwmbl, and ChatGPT

#338
post #17

I noticed that the author uses ChatGPT3.5 rather than 4, which is a rather large difference. I don't have the knowledge to rerank all questions the author asked, but I will say that a test of ChatGPT 4 leads me directly to youtube-dl, which is better than every other search engine listed.

That was the first thing I checked reading the article. Although the argument would be 3.5 is free - any comparison of systems against ChatGPT that isn't using ChatGPT 4 can be dismissed almost out of hand; there is not much point talking about ChatGPT if it's not using ChatGPT 4 and making proper use of its capabilities. That is not to say that there aren't valid criticisms of and shortcomings in ChatGPT 4 - just th…

This is silly, most people aren't going to pay for ChatGPT, just like they won't pay for Google or DDG. So using 3.5 in this case is perfectly acceptable when we're talking about free software.

Re: Compare Google, Bing, Marginalia, Kagi, Mwmbl, and ChatGPT

#339
post #17

I noticed that the author uses ChatGPT3.5 rather than 4, which is a rather large difference. I don't have the knowledge to rerank all questions the author asked, but I will say that a test of ChatGPT 4 leads me directly to youtube-dl, which is better than every other search engine listed.

I’ve come to recognize that any article that uses 3.5 has an agenda.

I also suspect as much, but obviously can't know for sure. IMHO it's intellectually lazy if not dishonest to benchmark against 3.5 and not make that fact clearly known upfront

A better benchmark would have had two entries for ChatGPT, showing both 3.5 and 4 results

Re: Compare Google, Bing, Marginalia, Kagi, Mwmbl, and ChatGPT

#340
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you click either of those links? They are not YouTube video downloaders, they just link to another downloader. There is nowhere on those links to even put a YouTube URL. Are you seriously suggesting that a website with the following "About us" with only a link to another YouTube video downloader is itself a good YouTube video downloader? > Good Samaritan Support Action is to reawaken the Body of Christ to receivi…

so, there is one extra click... But for the user, the site does the job and takes an extra 1 second. Ideal? No. But it does the trick.

Not GP, but navigating to an unrelated scammy site just having a link to the actual site is a terrible and unethical job by Google. Imagine if you search "youtube" and the top result is not YouTube but some scammy site just having a link to YouTube. It's not about click counts, if the youtube downloader has bad UX and requires extra clicks, it's a bit inconvenient but ok.
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