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NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

arstechnica.com

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Re: NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

#901

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I make a website that scrapes NYT and passes it back and forth through a machine translator, say, English -> Spanish -> English, then the content will be slightly modified. Is this legal to make money off of? Seems like the legal answer is unclear but, like Napster, such a system seems like it would lose in court.

It would be unlikely to be something you'd find paying customers for, though? I suppose if you charged a small percentage of what NYT charges people might be willing to consider it, but you'd have some costs for hosting etc., so I am skeptical about its viability as a business model...

I'd serve fake news en-masse to low IQ people who click things to feel good about their own views. I'd also build a handful of websites (ideally as many as I can personally manage) to flood the Internet with fake news clickbait.

One site clones fox news. One clones news max. And so on, cloning many news sites, sports sites, any news site. Automated, massive scale content farming. Think of the websites recommended by Taboola but, realistically, a whole lot worse.

Re: NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

#902

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're getting mixed up. When applying the four factors, you need to individually separate all the uses. So you would need to repeat the fair use test for every alleged type of infringement. This means that the scraping from the public internet to OpenAI's dataset storage cluster is one instance where the full analysis of the 4 must take place, then the training itself, so another full analysis, then the distribution…

Why so? From the point of view of the company alleging damage the separation of processes is irrelevant. It all leads to massive copyright infringement. It is not the NYT making the claim of Fair Use, it is OpenAI.

Because fair use is an affirmative defense to each claim, not to the general accusation. So if someone sues you for "copyright infringment", broadly speaking, but then you look at the actual document and it's 4 claims based on 4 sections of U.S.C Title 17, you can raise a fair use defense to two of them and a different one to the other two, or none at all for those last ones and simply settle them, while still defending the first two.

Re: NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

#903
post #895

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state, through taxes. It's a public good after all.

So you want someone like Trump to control the media?

No. I want an independent, but state-financed media, like the ARD or the BBC.

Re: NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

#904
post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't, but there are some people who can quickly memorize entire pages of written text.

That's why I qualified with "at least most"

And most ML models cannot do that either. This is not a good analogy.

Re: NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

#905

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why so? From the point of view of the company alleging damage the separation of processes is irrelevant. It all leads to massive copyright infringement. It is not the NYT making the claim of Fair Use, it is OpenAI.

Because fair use is an affirmative defense to each claim , not to the general accusation. So if someone sues you for "copyright infringment", broadly speaking, but then you look at the actual document and it's 4 claims based on 4 sections of U.S.C Title 17, you can raise a fair use defense to two of them and a different one to the other two, or none at all for those last ones and simply settle them, while still defen…

An affirmative defence shifts the burden to the defendant. Its not going to end well for Open AI.

Re: NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

#906
post #852

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I propose getting paid before doing the work for the actual labor of creation. Crowdfunding, patronage, comissions, sponsorships all seem like ethical ways to get things done sustainably. That way creators get paid before they work, not after. We must strengthen these business models that don't depend on artificial scarcity because this number selling nonsense was over the second computers were invented. It's as dumb…

How do you know what the value of the art will be before it's created? Guns N' Roses is a top 40 artist on Spotify nearly 35 years after producing an album. Should they not have been paid after 1991? If you argue that they were a popular band and therefore should have been paid accordingly up front, well what about their debut record, which sold 30 million copies? How would you predict that value before its creation…

> How do you know what the value of the art will be before it's created?

I don't know. Anyone funding the work is accepting a risk.

> Should they not have been paid after 1991?

They definitely should get paid for their shows and live performances. The band itself can't be copied. Artists are extremely scarce.

Their art, however, is not. Once created, the scarcity of their recordings is artificial and fundamentally time limited anyway. Even if I were extremely tolerant of copyright, I'd argue for a term of only 5-10 years maximum with absolutely no possibility of extension.

In other words, even if we accept copyright as legitimate, they sure as hell shouldn't still be getting paid for some late 80s album. They've already been adequately compensated for those creations. If they want more, they should have to keep making new stuff so that they can benefit from new copyrights which will also expire after a short time.

Creators are not supposed to be able to strike gold once and then enjoy eternal royalties. Copyright must have short time frames or it's in breach of the social contract. The reality is we're doing creators a favor by pretending that it's hard to copy their stuff so they can make some money. We do this because they assured us that eventually all of it would belong to us: works would the public domain.

The copyright industry isn't keeping up their end of the bargain. They continuously pull the rug out from under us by extending copyright to the point we'll be long dead before our culture is returned to us. It's offensive and we should all stop pretending. They need reminding that public domain is the natural and default state of all intellectual work.

> How would you predict that value before its creation (or even after)?

I'd look at the artist's past work. If there is no past work, then I don't know.

> If you're saying that only the labor has value

I'm not saying that at all. Creations are valuable. Creators are valuable. The labor of creation is valuable.

Value is assigned to stuff by humans. Obviously humans value art. The price however is given by supply and demand. The fact is that supply of intellectual works approach infinity after they are created and therefore their prices approach zero. So it makes perfect sense to assign prices to the labor of creation but zero sense to assign a price to the product of creation. Copyright is an exercise in denying reality.

> and all labor is valued equally

I definitely did not say that. All labor is different. I value some creators a lot more than others. Some creators I don't value at all.

> that sounds sort of like marxism

I must apologize if I gave that impression. I hate marxism.

Re: NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

#907

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Copyright law doesn't mention opt outs or search engine snippet controls. It's not clear to me that robots.txt is the singular thing that makes Google legal. Genuinely - what are you talking about besides your own assumptions? you just assume everything google does is legal and therefore any one else doing anything arguably similar must also be legal? Without regard for factual details that do matter to copyright la…

> you just assume everything google does is legal Not an assumption. This is well established. They've been doing it for twenty years! > Without regard for factual details that do matter to copyright law? Such as license?? What license? Google doesn't in general have or need an explicit license to crawl websites and neither does OpenAI.

>Not an assumption. This is well established. They've been doing it for twenty years!

It's not at all well-established. How many anti-trust suits is Google facing now? Your proposition defies common sense.

>What license? Google doesn't in general have or need an explicit license to crawl websites and neither does OpenAI.

It's not the crawling the website that OpenAI did that it needs a license for... why bother conversing if you are going to be this obtuse?

Re: NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

#908

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, just like it’s infringement to reproduce an article from memory using pen and paper intentionally. The person deciding to do that bears responsibility. OpenAI would be liable IFF they were intentionally facilitating that, instead of it being an undesired artifact from overfitting.

I'm pretty sure if you reproduce a work from memory by accident, because you didn't notice your subconscious had just stored the entire article and is now reproducing it word for word, you'd still be guilty of copyright infringement.

Or the person doing the prompt hacking intending to produce this result from you would be.

Re: NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

#909

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because fair use is an affirmative defense to each claim , not to the general accusation. So if someone sues you for "copyright infringment", broadly speaking, but then you look at the actual document and it's 4 claims based on 4 sections of U.S.C Title 17, you can raise a fair use defense to two of them and a different one to the other two, or none at all for those last ones and simply settle them, while still defen…

An affirmative defence shifts the burden to the defendant. Its not going to end well for Open AI.

Sure, but my original point still stands. OpenAI has a much better chance with how fair use actually works than with how you described it in your original comment.

Re: NY Times copyright suit wants OpenAI to delete all GPT instances

#910
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They" also include the people working there. Why someone work with full time writing articles should give the work for free just let someone to train it and make money out of it as a consequence?

>Why someone work with full time writing articles should give the work for free They are not giving it out "for free", in fact they're being paid by their employer to write these articles. Moreover, the writers themselves stand noth' to gain from their past writings financially as they don't belong to the ownership structure of the business.

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