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Croquet: Live, network-transparent 3D gaming

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Re: Croquet: Live, network-transparent 3D gaming

#71

How does this compare to Mozilla hubs or the Third Room. https://hubs.mozilla.com/ https://github.com/matrix-org/thirdroom

Since downthread people asked for explanations.

I know nothing about Mozilla Hubs or the Third Room. No comment or comparison to make.

This "Croquet" is a new version of a circa 20 year old project: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croquet_Project

That Croquet was an effort to extend a then circa 25 year old project, the Smalltalk programming language,.

Smalltalk is more or less the original object oriented programming language (there was Simula before it but it has different goals). Smalltalk aimed to make it easy and fun to create GUIs and GUI-driven, 2D graphical, software.

Smalltalk largely flopped in the market although some commercial and FOSS versions survive. For instance the Eclipse IDE is an offshoot of one of these.

Some of the original Smalltalk team created Squeak, a modern colourful Smalltalk that is entirely FOSS. Squeak has been used to create lots of other things such as the children's educational programming tool Scratch.

Croquet was built on and in Squeak. Croquet extended Squeak into two new directions at once: 3D graphics, including hardware acceleration, and transparent networking.

Croquet could be used to build 3D apps and entire 3D environments, including 3D games and VR along with lots of other things.

But also, at the same time, the idea is that Croquet instances on different machines can talk over a network, using a protocol called Teatime, so that those instances are connected and can share data, live, in real time.

The idea is, as I understand it, that it makes stuff like multiuser video conferencing so trivial it's basically a no-code exercise.

It is trivial to build something like Zoom or Teams or Google Meet: you draw a room, place some picture frames on the wall, connect each one to the mic and camera of the local machine, and boom, you have a video conference in 3D, without coding.

It is meant to make much more complicated ambitious stuff easy. It extends Smalltalk and makes it able to do 3D as easily as Smalltalk did 2D stuff at Xerox PARC in the 1970s, and it makes it all network-transparent, so connecting instances is as easy as coordinating two Smalltalk windows to share data: literally a fun game for schoolchildren.

Xerox PARC's Smalltalk is the 1970s tech that was the original inspiration for the Apple Lisa in 1982, and a couple of years later, the cheap cut-down version, the original Apple Macintosh in 1984. That inspired Microsoft Windows, and Windows created an industry of cheap 32-bit PCs with integrated graphics and sound which is where Linux developed and thrived.

Croquet, in 2004, took this 1970s tech that predated (and caused!) the microcomputer boom and put it on the Internet with hardware rendered 3D.

Smalltalk is the original language that popularised OOPS and so which led to C++ and Java and Python and C# and .NET and Scala and Rust and Go and all that. It is also the language which inspired the Mac and GUIs... all GUIs.

Smalltalk also directly inspired later OOPS languages, such as Self. Self subsumes Smalltalk objects into "prototypes", using a Smalltalk-like syntax.

Self later inspired Javascript, which replaces the Smalltalk-like syntax with C-type curly-brackets syntax.

Now, OpenCroquet moves Croquet off Squeak Smalltalk and into Javascript instead. It is Croquet, ported from Squeak to Javascript, so it runs inside the browser.

Re: Croquet: Live, network-transparent 3D gaming

#72
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the point is that the gap is awfully large.

It would be good to hear what the gap actually is, if it’s so obvious.

I have replied to "ImHereToVote" upthread with my effort at a comment-length summary.

Re: Croquet: Live, network-transparent 3D gaming

#73
post #11
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm. Not much at all. They are original monochrome 1978 Space Invaders, and this is Fortnite with 10,000 players online at once, in full immersive VR?

That was an awful comparison

An attempt at a serious explanation:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38803004

Re: Croquet: Live, network-transparent 3D gaming

#74
post #35

Honestly, I am not sure what I am looking at, too much corp-speak. Even though I am in similar industry(I think). If anyone is looking for a simple multiplayer SDK for games, I am making one: https://docs.joinplayroom.com

I wrote the original article. I have tried to summarise it here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38803004

Re: Croquet: Live, network-transparent 3D gaming

#75
post #4

This looks great! But with all these mentions of democratizing and opposing centralization, the licensing model seems unclear to me. The Croquet Microverse is Apache-licensed but "built on top of Croquet OS" which seems to be proprietary with paid and centralized server. Does anyone understand whether at least the client side component of the Croquet OS, which interfaces with the Microverse, is open source so that al…

Croquet's always been peer-to-peer, with no need for servers. It sounds like they've made a small server to "reflect" traffic between clients that can't directly communicate (like using a STUN server to coordinate SIP/WebRTC). > Does anyone understand whether at least the client side component of the Croquet OS, which interfaces with the Microverse, is open source so that alternative server implementation could be de…

[deleted]

Re: Croquet: Live, network-transparent 3D gaming

#76
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be good to hear what the gap actually is, if it’s so obvious.

[Article author here] OK, look, yesterday, I spent an hour carefully writing a simple explanation for some zeeb on Fesse Bouc on why you couldn't expand a ZX Spectrum with more RAM. He replied with a one-line dismissal saying it was boring. I blocked the nasty little troll. Do you really want me to try to explain this, or is this another idle snarky comment? Trying to summarize what's important about this tech is goi…

The guy you're replying to leads one of the projects which you dismissed very lazily, and he was looking for some elaboration.

Re: Croquet: Live, network-transparent 3D gaming

#77
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be good to hear what the gap actually is, if it’s so obvious.

[Article author here] OK, look, yesterday, I spent an hour carefully writing a simple explanation for some zeeb on Fesse Bouc on why you couldn't expand a ZX Spectrum with more RAM. He replied with a one-line dismissal saying it was boring. I blocked the nasty little troll. Do you really want me to try to explain this, or is this another idle snarky comment? Trying to summarize what's important about this tech is goi…

> Do you really want me to try to explain this, or is this another idle snarky comment?

Yes, and thanks for doing so at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38803004. I was hoping for a comparison with Third Room particularly, given TR was directly inspired by the original Croquet (albeit using WASM for shared computation rather than SmallTalk semantics). But it looks as you may have dismissed TR out of hand; I tried to explain its novelties at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38773575.

> Have you RTFA and read the Wikipedia page on the original Croquet?

Yes, yes, and I used the original Croquet extensively in the mid-2000's.

> Have you, in other words, done the absolutely minimal effort?

Yes, I think so. I was more wondering how you felt modern-Croquet compared with other Croquet-inspired decentralised collaboration/comptuation environments like Third Room; I think I have the answer loud and clear now.

Re: Croquet: Live, network-transparent 3D gaming

#78
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Article author here] OK, look, yesterday, I spent an hour carefully writing a simple explanation for some zeeb on Fesse Bouc on why you couldn't expand a ZX Spectrum with more RAM. He replied with a one-line dismissal saying it was boring. I blocked the nasty little troll. Do you really want me to try to explain this, or is this another idle snarky comment? Trying to summarize what's important about this tech is goi…

> Do you really want me to try to explain this, or is this another idle snarky comment? Yes, and thanks for doing so at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38803004 . I was hoping for a comparison with Third Room particularly, given TR was directly inspired by the original Croquet (albeit using WASM for shared computation rather than SmallTalk semantics). But it looks as you may have dismissed TR out of hand; I trie…

Thanks for the very patient and civil response, and I am sorry for my tone. I am far too used to being challenged and confronted about simple statements of historical record in software and technology, but talking to other old farts in the industry, apparently this is now commonplace. :-(

I apologise.

I was very impressed by the tech demo of Open Croquet that I received, but there is only so much space in a Reg article and I didn't feel that I was technically qualified to go deep into how the tech works.

I can respect good tech or a good demo even though I have no use for it myself. I don't do online gaming at all and have not done so since its very early days. It is outside my ballpark: I personally am not interested in using 3D, or gaming, or VR, or programming any of these things.

Which is also why I do not follow other entrants in this field. So I am sorry but I'd never heard of TR, or of Mozilla's offering.

Re: Croquet: Live, network-transparent 3D gaming

#79
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Article author here] OK, look, yesterday, I spent an hour carefully writing a simple explanation for some zeeb on Fesse Bouc on why you couldn't expand a ZX Spectrum with more RAM. He replied with a one-line dismissal saying it was boring. I blocked the nasty little troll. Do you really want me to try to explain this, or is this another idle snarky comment? Trying to summarize what's important about this tech is goi…

The guy you're replying to leads one of the projects which you dismissed very lazily, and he was looking for some elaboration.

And we are talking.

But when everyone uses pseudonyms, it is not obvious.

"Arathorn" is Aragorn's father in the Lord of the Rings and it doesn't tell me that anyone is a programmer of anything at all. How was I to know?

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