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"No inventions; no innovations" A History of US Steel

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Re: "No inventions; no innovations" A History of US Steel

#101

Post by pfdietz »

Animats wrote: post #51

For an overview of how Nucor became #1 in the US steel industry, see "American Steel" (1992) by Richard Preston. The author was present for the building and startup of Nucor's first continuous thin sheet casting mini-mill. Nucor bought a new experimental continuous caster from a German company, after trying to build their own, and built a mill around it. This plant could turn scrap metal into sheet steel. "You could…

A very good book, although being 31 years old some of the characters are dead now (like the then-head of Nucor.)

The chapter describing the accident (where a ladle of molten steel fell and the steel drained into a depressed area with standing water) is horrific. It's fortunate the body count wasn't higher.

Re: "No inventions; no innovations" A History of US Steel

#102

Post by kriro »

nostrademons wrote: post #83
sjfjsjdjwvwvc wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which war did the US win post WW2? Afaict they all ended in stalemates and eventual retreat (Korea,Iraq,Vietnam,Afghanistan,..)

This all depends on victory conditions. The U.S. "won" Korea, Iraq, Vietnam, and Afghanistan in the same sense that they "won" WW2 - those countries were bombed back into the stone age and the existing governments fell. But WW2 was fought as the U.S. was an ascendant (but not dominant) power among a number of peer rivals, and the U.S. was not the aggressor. It felt like a victory, because we emerged as the dominant p…

In my opinion, this is a misrepresentation of the Vietnam war. The country was not "bombed back into the stone age". The U.S. merely used extremely despicable tactics like Agent Orange, My Lai etc.

I'm also not aware of the existing Vietnamese government falling (depends on which one you consider the existing one but it was not the government the U.S. wanted to fall that fell). The country resisted a superior invader like it did in the past (China) and I'm pretty sure most people would consider Vietnam the winner of the war (if there's a winner in war).

Re: "No inventions; no innovations" A History of US Steel

#103

Post by stjohnswarts »

vGPU wrote: post #72
araes wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has started to have the appearance of griefing their own enlisted. I'm not sure if America actually cares about those types of war and military considerations any longer. Have you looked at ship construction times lately? On the materials side. Totally agree. However the issue there, is that's not what corporations tend to optimize. The story itself really spells it out pretty clearly (it may be biased, never…

Which they are likely sorely regretting as tensions flare higher with China and our navy is struggling to protect shipping around Israel.

They really aren't struggling. But yeah, China will soon outstrip our naval numbers by a large amount within the end out of the decade. We still have better tech but what do we do when they launch, at the same time, 200 "good enough" cruise missiles at each aircraft carrier sitting in the Taiwan Straight?

Re: "No inventions; no innovations" A History of US Steel

#104

Post by AdamH12113 »

nostrademons wrote: post #83
sjfjsjdjwvwvc wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which war did the US win post WW2? Afaict they all ended in stalemates and eventual retreat (Korea,Iraq,Vietnam,Afghanistan,..)

This all depends on victory conditions. The U.S. "won" Korea, Iraq, Vietnam, and Afghanistan in the same sense that they "won" WW2 - those countries were bombed back into the stone age and the existing governments fell. But WW2 was fought as the U.S. was an ascendant (but not dominant) power among a number of peer rivals, and the U.S. was not the aggressor. It felt like a victory, because we emerged as the dominant p…

The government of North Korea did not fall or surrender. You can argue that it was a political win if the goal was defending South Korea, but militarily, it was a stalemate.

North Vietnam conquered South Vietnam after we withdrew. It was in no way a victory for the United States. Afghanistan was arguably pretty similar, although we did install a new government while we were there.

Germany and Japan, on the other hand, surrendered unconditionally. Saying that Germany and Japan were “bombed back into the Stone Age” is a wild exaggeration, though — strategic bombing famously failed to cripple Germany’s wartime industrial production. (Strategic bombing in general is overrated.)

Your number for US deaths in Iraq is low by at least a factor of four.

You may wish to learn the actual histories of these wars before trying to draw big conclusions.

Re: "No inventions; no innovations" A History of US Steel

#105

Post by tandr »

altairTF wrote: post #54
mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solution for the future of American industry: Bomb US Steel? Maybe this would also be an effective way of clearing out NIMBYs blocking the routes for high-speed rail lines?

Every 100 years, the government send a warning and carpet bomb a city to the ground. This for sure would remove all the past vicious of the region affected. That would be something

Sounds like a good plot for a (short) sci-fi story.

Re: "No inventions; no innovations" A History of US Steel

#106

Post by scotty79 »

atrus wrote: post #15
pjscott wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although it's true, that's a hazardous way of thinking. If they had put more of their focus on making steel, keeping up with the technological advances rather than being dragged along grudgingly, perhaps they'd be making more money these days.

It reminds me of that old quote that democracies die when the citizens realize they can vote themselves money. It's the same with these companies, the upper managements realizing they can just give themselves more money and coast on their companies momentum. It's not the innovators dilemma, it's the c-suite lines their pockets while the company burns dilemma.

It doesn't really fit the modern collapse. Democracies seem to decline when oligarchs extract so much wealth that the entire economy suffers and common people flock to strong political figures to bring back order and prosperity.

> citizens realize they can vote themselves money

Although this certainly sounds true if you consider just the richest citizens and by "vote" you mean inflence the votes.

Re: "No inventions; no innovations" A History of US Steel

#107

Post by stjohnswarts »

vGPU wrote: post #72
araes wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has started to have the appearance of griefing their own enlisted. I'm not sure if America actually cares about those types of war and military considerations any longer. Have you looked at ship construction times lately? On the materials side. Totally agree. However the issue there, is that's not what corporations tend to optimize. The story itself really spells it out pretty clearly (it may be biased, never…

Which they are likely sorely regretting as tensions flare higher with China and our navy is struggling to protect shipping around Israel.

They really aren't struggling we have plenty of firepower there. But yeah, China will soon outstrip our naval numbers by a large amount within the end out of the decade. We still have better tech but what do we do when they launch 200 "good enough" cruise missiles at each aircraft carrier sitting in the Taiwan Straight?

Re: "No inventions; no innovations" A History of US Steel

#108

Post by anjel »

sjfjsjdjwvwvc wrote: post #61
l33t7332273 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A small country winning the war against post WW2 USA seems like it would be a bit of a plot hole.

Which war did the US win post WW2? Afaict they all ended in stalemates and eventual retreat (Korea,Iraq,Vietnam,Afghanistan,..)

Granada and Panama.

Re: "No inventions; no innovations" A History of US Steel

#109

Post by boringuser2 »

pomian wrote: post #30

One of the ideas that seems to be missed from the study of history and economy, was the effect on the total destruction of the Japanese and German industrial base - during WWII. Britain and USA, were left with their archaic industrial systems. After WWII, the Japanese and the German steel industry had to be completely reborn. (At the cost of primarily USA financing.) Those two countries had no more relics of the past…

I don't really like this claim because we are perfectly capable of blowing up our own factories, but people generally agree that it probably isn't a good idea.

Re: "No inventions; no innovations" A History of US Steel

#110

Post by scotty79 »

mikeyouse wrote: post #95
scotty79 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any other country considers any of those cases to be wins ... Perhaps maybe wars in Iraq or Jugoslavia. I think eventual loss in Ukraine will be last nail in the coffin of US military reputation.

The US isn’t fighting in Ukraine so that’d be a strange result. Especially since our surplus weapons with novice operators have laid waste to the invasion force of what was considered to be the 2nd or 3rd strongest army on the planet..

> The US isn’t fighting in Ukraine

Same way that russia is not fighting a war but commencing special military operation.

US is doing it with both hands tied behind their back but it will make defeat no less devastating.

In reality US is fighting their penultimate war right now if it ends in a loss.

> what was considered to be the 2nd or 3rd strongest army on the planet..

That was summarily debunked about two weeks into the conflict. And noone but russians believes it today.

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