New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers • Hacker News Board

Re: New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

#211

Post by alephnerd » Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 5:13 PM UTC

fallingknife wrote: post #198

alephnerd wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$200-300k base with 15% annual bonus and equity ($300k-750k when I was working at public companies. I can't speak to my portfolio company's equity practices) is not a shit wage. We needed people who understood stuff like XDP and worked on it for years. The talent pool for low level development, OS Dev, cybersecurity, networking, and some parts of ML is sparse in the US compared to Israel, Eastern Europe, China, and I…

The problem is that instead of building a domestic talent pipeline for high demand skills we take the easy route and grab immigrants for it. So the talent pipeline never gets built, and then we continue to be dependent on immigration. This is obviously not your company's fault because they are not policy makers, but if companies like yours were told "too bad, hire and train locally" you would get it done. e.g. I am a…

> companies like yours were told "too bad, hire and train locally"

Companies would collapse and fail, unless the government gave a massive corporate stimulus package (probably 4-5x the size of PPE).

> none of the skills you need, but I could easily be trained

It would take at least 1-2 years. At that point, an Israeli or Indian startup has taken market share and won. Welcome to cybersecurity and networking.

Re: New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

#212

Post by rayiner » Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 5:14 PM UTC

pavlov wrote: post #117

rayiner wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like a win-win. Hopefully remote work will reduce the need for immigration.

How is it a win for the United States if American companies are employing less people in the country, and instead are paying remote workers who pay taxes elsewhere?

The US doesn’t understand the social burden of integrating an immigrant, and the resulting social conflict. Meanwhile, the prospective immigrant gets to stay in their homeland (most don’t really want to leave, money aside).

If tax dollars are the issue, just tax the company.

Re: New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

#213

Post by binarymax » Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 5:15 PM UTC

xtreme wrote: post #59

toomuchtodo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a US citizen interested in improving the visa process who regularly interfaces with policymakers, propose an objective rubric that is better and I will get it in front of policymakers. Can't guarantee an outcome, will guarantee the effort. Patent quota is bullshit, but also "I know talent when I see it" (even though I do and how I hire) isn't going to fly. Sorting hats are hard, Goodhart's Law, etc. High level, yo…

You don't have to look far, Canada has already implemented a point based system for granting permanent residence to skilled workers. It assigns scores to applicants based on education, skills, employment offer, language speaking ability, etc. I believe it can be a good starting point for a more objective selection criteria than the current system which is more based on luck. https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refug…

Same for the UK, the tier-1 visa, which is how I got my first independent visa there. Unfortunately it also gives high points for income, which biases for privileged peoples and origin countries. But if you can get to the UK on a work permit with a high salary for a couple years, then you can apply it as points when you eventually apply.

EDIT: just checked and it’s obsolete. Not sure if there is a post-Brexit equivalent. https://www.gov.uk/tier-1-investor

Re: New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

#214

Post by vsskanth » Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 5:17 PM UTC

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #194

vsskanth wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the rubric depends on whether policymakers view the employment based green card system as zero-sum or non-zero-sum. My proposal for green cards: zero-sum - points based system based on your current salary, taxes paid and the occupation shortage list OR straight up auction non-zero-sum - let people apply for a green card as long as they've stayed in the country for X years without any criminal infractions, hav…

Who creates the occupation shortage list and how is it protected from companies who want their jobs included on it to drive down wages and suppress workers' rights?

DOL does it. It's called the Schedule A Occupation List.

The problem is they don't update it constantly like Canada does. Needs funding I guess.

https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-6-part-e-chapter-...

Re: New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

#215

Post by snakeyjake » Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 5:18 PM UTC

tsudounym wrote: post #166

snakeyjake wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My employer cannot hire H1Bs. They are prohibited by law. All employees must be US citizens. They pay extremely competitive rates. They are the reason for and a source of complaints regarding gentrification in my area. edit: as an example the starting rate for high school work-study and college interns is the hourly equivalent of $78k/yr plus the same benefits as full-time employees from the second they show up. The…

As someone not far removed from university, you will have a very hard time finding US citizens who take linear algebra seriously and also have a willingness to work for the Mil Industrial Complex (which this sounds like)

Only half, roughly, of our revenue comes from the Department of Defense.

If you have:

* Received an alert on your phone saying that it's going to rain in your local area in the next 10 minutes,

* Been alarmed by a paper containing synthetic aperture radar data showing high-resolution plots of coastal erosion and sea level rise, or

* Used a map or route planning application that has satellite imagery textured onto high-resolution terrain and 3d models of buildings and landmarks,

You've PROBABLY used our products.

The military just the sugar daddy who pays for the other stuff.

I mean, I don't do any of that stuff.

I just stare at error-ridden digikey product listings all day, argue with PMs about the reality of their schedules, and sit through endless design reviews. But somehow, someone somewhere in the company does that stuff.

Re: New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

#216

Post by ndiddy » Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 5:18 PM UTC

snakeyjake wrote: post #37

lgleason wrote: post #4

Expect further downward pressure on US tech salaries.

My employer cannot hire H1Bs. They are prohibited by law. All employees must be US citizens. They pay extremely competitive rates. They are the reason for and a source of complaints regarding gentrification in my area. edit: as an example the starting rate for high school work-study and college interns is the hourly equivalent of $78k/yr plus the same benefits as full-time employees from the second they show up. The…

> My employer cannot hire H1Bs. They are prohibited by law. All employees must be US citizens.

If this is a contractor that requires security clearances, that’s a significant barrier to recruiting even US citizens. Most of your best applicants will be snapped up by someone else prior to completing the months long clearance process (which requires telling their current employer they’re looking to move elsewhere at the start).

Re: New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

#217

Post by y-c-o-m-b » Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 5:18 PM UTC

alephnerd wrote: post #146

jmyeet wrote: post #49

I'm a little surprised to see a number of anti-immigraiton comments on this thread, some of which you could describe as reactionary. The US is and always has been a country of immigrants. Your idea of who is and isn't an immigrant is simply a question of what time window you choose. In 1800, the US had a population of ~2 million. by 1900 it was ~50 million. You want to guess how itt got that way? Let's dispense of th…

> I'm a little surprised to see a number of anti-immigraiton comments on this thread First time in an immigration discussion on HN? They always bring the "America for Americans (who look like me)" types out of the woodwork.

FWIW I'm a foreign-born US citizen and I agree with them. I think immigration is important for highly in-demand fields that can't be fulfilled by US citizens or existing permanent residents within the next 5 years. Nurses and doctors for example. Tech is not one of those fields, so I would 100% support anti-immigration policies (including outsourcing restrictions) in that sector until there is a true need for it.

Re: New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

#218

Post by remarkEon » Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 5:20 PM UTC

alephnerd wrote: post #162

blasphemers wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically you only have open engineering positions in the same few markets that every other tech company does and then you complain when you can't find enough engineers. Engineering talent doesn't only exist on the coasts, despite startup tech culture pretending it does.

We listed all these jobs remotely. There just aren't that many engineers who know OS Internals, eBPF, or XDP in Indiana compared to Tel Aviv or Bangalore.

That is a policy problem. Opening up more immigration makes that problem worse, not better. It should be a question that everyone asks: why do US Universities not create an adequate supply of workers to meet the demand of the market? No one seems to care and the solution is always “just do more immigration”. Makes no sense.

Re: New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

#219

Post by geodel » Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 5:21 PM UTC

aiisahik wrote: post #123

pavlov wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it a win for the United States if American companies are employing less people in the country, and instead are paying remote workers who pay taxes elsewhere?

It's not. It's just a WIN WIN for the company and the individual. But this is what the US is encouraging with its immigration policy so you reap what you sow.

Another thing could be that you come collecting US degrees is a WIN for US. Maybe degrees in Australia or your birth country weren't good enough for you (or you weren't good enough for them). Either way that US was able to have you for education and jobs for many years after that is win in my book.

Re: New U.S. immigration rules spur more visa approvals for STEM workers

#220

Post by genmud » Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 5:22 PM UTC

AlchemistCamp wrote: post #161

genmud wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see a revamp of visa system that when someone is sponsored by companies they are required to do a 1:1 match for scholarships on the salary of someone who they are sponsoring. Alternatively make the minimum $100k or max $250k. As someone who had someone come over on a O-1 visa, I 100% would have been willing to pay double for that person specifically. It also removes the common issue of people who are…

Rather than doubling the cost a company has to pay for a foreign employee, which inevitably pushes down wages for high-end talent, why not just rank applicants based on how much they’re actually paid? If an employee is recruited at $250k, they clearly have skills the market values.

I don't think it would push down wages for high end talent if you keep the requirements they pay prevailing wages. If anything, it would increase the wages for people.

The point would be that we fill and address the talent problem longer term. AKA if you need to hire foreign workers, you have to invest in developing new talent.

I would say that total comp should be taken into account, but we should take a more strategic approach to addressing workforce gaps rather than just relying on importing talent.