There's also another thing to bear in mind. I've spent most of my career in the games industry. The games industry as a whole is only about 30 years old. It's only now we're seeing programmers/artists in their 40s+. This is almost certainly true for most tech companies. Lets see how this holds in 30 years from now.
Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors
101–110 of 231 posts
Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors
#102> Statistics show that most software developers are out of the field by age 40.
Really? What statistics? And where do these statistics show the developers going? People don't just dry up and blow away at 40. They move to managerial positions. They start their own companies. They stay in jobs longer, so while you might see fewer of them being hired, that doesn't mean they're not still working in the field.
And there are simply not many older developers to begin with. How much of this effect is the fact that there are simply many more qualified developers under 35 than there are over 40, as the field wasn't as big and not as many people were getting training 20 years ago?
This article is high on anecdotal doom and gloom and low on actual evidence. "Statistics show" is not a very convincing argument.
Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors
#103I'm a 25 year-old former Marine who thought he could take a shot at being a programmer when he exited the military. I never had any background in programming other than being interested in UNIX and Linux at a young age, so CS seemed like the logical choice for someone who had a GI bill to burn. 2 years and a lot of classes later, I'm realizing I'm too old to compete at this gig, and I should have started when I was 1…
> 2 years and a lot of classes later, I'm realizing I'm too old to compete at this gig
No, you're not. You have the wrong teachers and wrong texts. In the contrary to what popular posts say, it takes a long time, years, to be a good programmer. You need to be able to be self-critic, completely change the way you do things. Many times.
Pick a decent open source project in something you find interesting. The harder and lower level, the better. Don't be afraid, there's always somewhere you can start. Join their irc channel and email lists. Help with documentation and test cases. They'll be more than happy to mentor you. And switch projects if you are not moving forward for a while.
Also spend a couple of hours a week on StackOverflow, reading and asking questions. Be polite and do your homework before asking. You'd be surprised how many people are happy to help you for free.
IMHO, most universities suck at making you a competent programmer.
Programming is a lot more about stamina and leaving your ego behind than fads and blogs, or universities. Your military background is a good start. Programming/CS is a lot about self-discipline.
Edit: Open a github account and start coding/forking. This might help you find employment more than experience listed on a CV
Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
Be careful. "Now I have another Rails project lined up for a NYC fashion site that pays about 15% more per hour than my day job" Contracting is vastly different than being an employee. Your employer pays considerably more than 15% more per hour for you (employer portion of taxes, portion of health insurance , etc.) As a contractor you'll be responsible for those expenses.
That 15% is not taking into account base salary (I'm including bonus + 401k matching)... it's more like 25% if you look at it that way ;). And this is a pretty entry level rate... in a year from now I know I'll be able to command at least 50-70% more. Health insurance can be had for barely more than the cost of fuel I was using in my daily commute, which is $200/mo. Yes, I have to do my own taxes, and yes they'll be…
The starting point for your contract rate should be the thousands number of your salary multiplied by 1.5
i.e., if you make $50k a year, charge $75/hr. If you make $100k/year, charge $150. How much do you think an associate attorney at a law firm that makes $150k per year is billed out at? CPA? Management consultant? All of these professionals are generally billed out at a median rate of nearly $200/hr. And the top end is astronomical, like $800/hr or more.
The hardest part about software consulting/contracting is learning to say a polite "fuck off" to the people not willing to pay your price. Everything else is easy. Making some money is the easy part. Earning respect is the difficult part.
"No less than 5 offers" - CHARGE MORE MONEY. As an engineer it is your responsibility to the craft to increase the prestige and respect of the job.
Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
A lot of modern jobs have only existed for Trust me, there are a lot of us.
That's true, but software development is special because not everybody can do it. Don't get me wrong here, I actually think that mostly anyone (lets say over average) can learn to code, including very young children or over 40 adults ... the difference between normal people and people that make a carrier out of it is that building actual applications is a lot harder than printing hello-world or sorting an array or sc…
Yeah I agree that programming, for whatever reason, seems to be something that a lot of people just can't do well.
But we're talking about the people that have been doing real work in the field for ~20 years getting booted out to god knows where. Is this true? If so, where do they go? It's not really so easy to start a completely new professional track at 40. Are they stocking shelves?
Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
Eh... I wouldn't write off the author that easily. I had him as a professor at UC Davis. http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/matloff.html
Perhaps, but he's no English major - didn't support his thesis.
He doesn't work for one either: his boss (Chancellor) is an EE. http://chancellor.ucdavis.edu/about/index.html
Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors
#107This article touched a nerve for me.
I haven't always been in computer science. I actually minored in English in college, and now I'm finishing up a MS program in CS (though I've always tinkered and programmed computers).
I have a tendency, for better or worse, to constantly think about the future. I'm 26 now, and about to graduate and go to work for a well known tech company. Originally I was much more interested in starting my own company, but I spent so much time catching up in CS that I never had enough time to network at school (which I think is crucial for startup success). I could have taken a job with an existing startup, but I never found one that really clicked for me (which I also think is crucial for working at a startup). So I went with the big tech company. It helped that they offered a lot of money. But it also makes me worry.
I'm not really worried about being unemployable, like the article suggests, because I doubt I'll ever be substantially worse of a programmer than I am now. But I do worry that I've hit some sort of ceiling. I'm pretty sharp now -- will I ever be twice or three times as sharp as I am now? Probably not. Assuming my pay tracks my ability (is this a valid assumption?), my current salary at 26 may be 75% or more of my lifetime max salary. In other words, I've already peaked.
Admittedly, some people may enjoy the comfort in this, but I don't. I feel a bit like the proverbial "shark" in that if I don't keep moving, I die. I am happiest with a destination I am moving toward, and if jobs like this one turn out to feel stagnant, I'll have to quit.
But if/when that time comes, will I still be able to break into the startup scene? Will I suffer from an age bias? Will I have too many other commitments, wife/kids, mortgage, etc., so that I won't be able to risk quitting my job?
And what really scares me: is it true that after 35 your programming mettle starts to leave you?
Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors
#108I'm a 25 year-old former Marine who thought he could take a shot at being a programmer when he exited the military. I never had any background in programming other than being interested in UNIX and Linux at a young age, so CS seemed like the logical choice for someone who had a GI bill to burn. 2 years and a lot of classes later, I'm realizing I'm too old to compete at this gig, and I should have started when I was 1…
Well, the competition is outrageous at the top end of programming jobs, also bear in mind that you are reading HN where many of the commentators are above average programmers who dream in code. However just because you might not land a job at Google does not mean you will not be able to create a decent career for yourself.
If you can get any experience working on OSS at all, especially on a reasonably well known project (not all of these are hugely technical, so you don't necessarily have to be some ninja guru). This will already put you ahead of the pack,many programmers use OSS but few actually contribute. You will also have the advantage that you will be able to work on real code and possibly get some mentoring which will help build your confidence.
Also bear in mind that as a former Marine you will have experience in areas that the overwhelming majority of programmers do not. Even if these do not seem directly relevant it can sometimes be surprising where you may be able to find a niche.
For example you might want to also consider looking into the IT/Operations side of computing (running datacenters etc), I would imagine that a military level of organizational skills as well as being able to deal with pressure would be very useful there.
I know plenty of competent programmers who did not start when they were 12.
Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors
#109I'm a 25 year-old former Marine who thought he could take a shot at being a programmer when he exited the military. I never had any background in programming other than being interested in UNIX and Linux at a young age, so CS seemed like the logical choice for someone who had a GI bill to burn. 2 years and a lot of classes later, I'm realizing I'm too old to compete at this gig, and I should have started when I was 1…
I read your story and I see someone who is full-time kicking ass to fulfill a true personal passion.
I see you've got various doubts. One small suggestion: when you say things like "I'm too old to compete at this gig" ask yourself if there is specific actual convincing evidence for that, or if you're just grappling with some near-term depressive thoughts. (Also, try gathering evidence for the opposite argument: That you'll compete well with your professional colleagues.)
I hope that didn't sound condescending. I definitely don't have any psychological training, just my .02. Having watched this industry for a while, I can assure you many of the people you think you're competing with will come and go with the business cycle and with real-world work challenges. People who really want to do it stick around through various bubbles and tend to do very well for themselves.
Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors
#110Possibly worth noting, in view of the article's use of "English majors" to mean nontechnical managerial types: Jamie Zawinski was an English major.