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The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

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Re: The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

#461

Post by umvi »

pxoe wrote: post #429
KHRZ wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a question, do you remember a source for all the knowledge in your mind, or did you at least try to remember?

a computer isn't a human. aren't computers good at storing data? why can't they just store that data? they literally have sources in datasets. why can't they just reference those sources? human analogies are cute, but they're completely irrelevant. it doesn't change that it's specifically about computers, and doesn't change or excuse how computers work.

Yes, computers are good at storing data. But there's a big difference between information stored in a database and information stored in a neural network. The former is well defined, the latter is a giant list of numbers - literally a black box. So in this case, the analogy to a human brain is fairly on-point because just as you can't perfectly cite every source that comes out of your (black box) brain, other black boxes have similar challenges.

Re: The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

#462

Post by cowsup »

Baldbvrhunter wrote: post #44
cowsup wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AFAIK reading copyrighted works is not copyright infringement. [...] Are they trying to say that LLM training is a special type of reading that should be considered infringement? Nobody can argue that OpenAI was feeding the content to ChatGPT because ChatGPT was bored or was curious about current events. It was fed NYT's content so it would know how to reproduce similar content, for profit. I think getting a case-l…

> ... for profit. for non-profit

1. Non-profit != "not making a profit." A non-profit can still earn monetary profit, and many do.

2. The non-profit OpenAI, Inc. company is not to be confused with the for-profit OpenAI GP, LLC [0] that it controls. OpenAI was solely a non-profit from 2015-2019, and, in 2019, the for-profit arm was created, prior to the launch of ChatGPT. Microsoft has a significant investment in the for-profit company, which is why they're included in this lawsuit.

[0] https://openai.com/our-structure

Re: The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

#463

Post by reqo »

I think in the long run, it is in the interest of AI companies to incentivize creators to create high quality data! Not paying them their fair share will likely decrease the volume of high quality data available (or make it much less accessible). Unless these companies already have developed another architecture that can learn much more from the same dataset, the lack of new high quality data will be a problem for future larger models!

Re: The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

#464

Post by arxpoetica »

We may well look back on these lawsuits and laugh.

AI will likely steamroll current copyright considerations. If we live in a world where anything can be generated at whim, copyright considerations will seem less and less relevant or even possible.

Wishful thinking, but maybe we'll all turn away from obsession with ownership, and instead turn to feeding the poor, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and afflicted.

Re: The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

#465

Post by lacrimacida »

dwringer wrote: post #124
Aurornis wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure if the verbatim content isn't more of a "stopped clock is right twice a day" or "monkeys typewriting shakespeare" situation. I think it’s more nuanced than that. Extending the “monkeys on typewriters” example, it would be like training and evolving those monkeys using Shakespeare as the training target. Eventually they will evolve to write content more Shakespeare like. If they get so close to the targ…

In the context of Shakespeare, I'd agree that there may be some competitive potential in the product. But in the context of news, something that evolves and relies on timely and accurate information, I don't see how something like that turns into competition for the NYT by being trained on past NYT outputs. If the argument is that people can use ChatGPT to get old NYT content for free, that can be illustrated simply…

One example I think of is that ChatGPT can mimick styles derived on its training and based on live input information (news) it could mimick the style of any publication the offer that at discount. That could prove as the last nail in the coffin for non AI publications.

Re: The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

#466

Post by dogman144 »

solardev wrote: post #388
JW_00000 wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I see it, if the NYT goes under (one of the biggest newspapers in the world), all similar outlets also go under. Major publishers, both of fiction and non-fiction, as well as images, video, and all other creative content, may also go under. Hence, there is no more (reliable) training data.

I'm not sure whether that would even be a net loss, TBH. So much commercial media is crap, maybe it would be better for the profit motive to be removed? On the fiction side, there's plenty of fan-fic and indie productions. On the nonfiction side, many indie creators produce better content these days than the big media outlets do. And there still might be room for premium investigative stories done either by a few con…

Your ability to cleanly believe you’ve got a clear read on the challenges, solutions and outcomes from AI for the social/civil/corporate mess that is media, across small to large markets, and chalk it up to “silly IP battles,” is the daily reminder I need on why it was so wrong to give tech the driver’s seat from ~2010 onward.

Re: The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

#467

Post by graphe »

ametrau wrote: post #213
andy99 wrote: post #101

The way to view this kind of parasitism is how we look at patent trolls. When you look at the RIAA/MPAA lawsuits, while I don't agree with them, at least file sharing was basically a canonical form of copyright infringement. With LLMs we have an aspect of a text corpus that the creators were not using (the language patterns) and had no plans for or even idea that it could be used, and then when someone comes along an…

But it’s theirs, they created it and should therefore benefit from it. I’m honestly shocked at how much these companies are getting away with. It’s piracy on a massive scale. You can get a little discombobulated reading the comments from the nerds / subject idiots on this site.

Who's stopping their nyt articles in favor of chatGPT? Nobody stopped watching movies when their lines are in the lyrics of songs.

Re: The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

#468

Post by wrs »

pxoe wrote: post #429
KHRZ wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a question, do you remember a source for all the knowledge in your mind, or did you at least try to remember?

a computer isn't a human. aren't computers good at storing data? why can't they just store that data? they literally have sources in datasets. why can't they just reference those sources? human analogies are cute, but they're completely irrelevant. it doesn't change that it's specifically about computers, and doesn't change or excuse how computers work.

The analogy to a database is also irrelevant. LLMs aren’t databases.

Re: The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

#469

Post by [deleted] »

exitb wrote: post #302
nullindividual wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copyright holders do get paid for library copies, in the US.

You make it seem as if the copyright holder is making more money on a library book, than on one sold in retail, which does not appear to be the case in the US.

[deleted]

Re: The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

#470

Post by Geisterde »

dissident_coder wrote: post #56

Even if they win against openAI, how would this prevent something like a Chinese or Russian LLM from “stealing” their content and making their own superior LLM that isnt weakened by regulation like the ones in the United States. And I say this as someone that is extremely bothered by how easily mass amounts of open content can just be vacuumed up into a training set with reckless abandon and there isn’t much you can…

I have faith in your ability to make it through these difficult times.
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