Live data from Hacker News

Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

npr.org

111–120 of 220 posts

Re: Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

#111
post #51
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Induction ranges heat up water faster and use less energy than gas ranges: https://www.treehugger.com/which-more-energy-efficient-cooki... Since you mentioned that you have backup heating, I assume you don’t live in a very cold climate, in which case a heat pump for your backup heat and water heater is your most efficient lowest cost option, not a gas system. Part of your gas bill is just paying the gas company for a…

Heating up water quickly is almost never a use case. It is not on the critical path for optimizations either. Unless you subsist on boiling noodles when you’re late for a meeting.

But the main function of any stove is to heat things up. Induction can simply do that faster. Boiling water is just an easy way to measure it

Re: Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

#112
post #51
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Induction ranges heat up water faster and use less energy than gas ranges: https://www.treehugger.com/which-more-energy-efficient-cooki... Since you mentioned that you have backup heating, I assume you don’t live in a very cold climate, in which case a heat pump for your backup heat and water heater is your most efficient lowest cost option, not a gas system. Part of your gas bill is just paying the gas company for a…

Heating up water quickly is almost never a use case. It is not on the critical path for optimizations either. Unless you subsist on boiling noodles when you’re late for a meeting.

When it heats it faster, there is less loss into the environment before all of it gets up to the required temperature. Efficiency gains is _always_ the desired optimization when you look at what new energy policies are trying to do.

Re: Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

#113
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why we need a carbon tax. Your gas bill needs to be much higher.

A good start would be to have the same tax on electricity and gas. It's absurd that gas is heavily subsidized in most of Europe: https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/news/eus-energy-taxa... Fortunately, I live in one of the few countries which don't subsidize gas (Sweden). When I visit the continent and see a gas stove, it feels like going to a museum. Induction stoves are so much better.

what a snob comment.

Re: Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

#114
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really believe it's more likely that gas companies are paying people to say they want a gas stove on HN than someone genuinely believing it? I've met some many normal people in real life that say the same thing about gas stoves, including family members that have nothing to do with any Big Gas plots.

No, I'm saying the anti-gas, electric cheerleaders seem ... inorganic.

Could you elaborate a bit on this. There seems to be a genuine group of people who are against burning fossil fuels. Burning natural gas causes health issues in cities, create water pollution that kills lakes, rivers, and ocean, and it causes global warming. Fossil fuels are also a major contributing to geopolitical instability in Europe, with all the recent wars having major aspects of fossil fuel politics in them.

It sucks for individuals that removing fossil fuels in Europe will have a negative impacts economically in the short term until either nuclear or alternative solutions can replace existing fossil fueled infrastructure. Replacing existing infrastructure is always costly, and core infrastructure is even more expensive. That said, the current wars and current problems from fossil fuels also cost a lot of money. The longer we wait on upgrading existing infrastructure the more it will cost in the long term.

Re: Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

#115
post #40
post #35

I have a gas range, gas water heater, gas logs, and gas backup heat. My gas bill is around $15 a month. My home has proper ventilation to the outside and I have no intention of converting a cheap gas bill into a high electric bill.

This is why we need a carbon tax. Your gas bill needs to be much higher.

Crab bucket.

Re: Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

#116

I switched to electric radiant. I miss being able to manipulate the pan yes. I like that it's more efficient. Gas kicked a LOT of heat into the kitchen. I like that it didn't scorch the side of the saucepans. Ultimately I switched to avoid burning fossil fuels. Every bit counts.

They're superior for lots of things, but inferior in ways that are very important for many cooks. I cooked professionally so I've got a whole lot more experience than most using stoves— including induction stoves at work.

If a typical home cook was buying a stove for their house, I'd recommend induction without thinking twice, especially if they have kids or can't have a hood that vents outside. Even without considering environmental concerns, I'd choose induction for restaurant pastry work— the precision and consistency are really great. It's also nice to not have all of the heat from 30 90k BTU burners all the time in a small room, too.

But for most uses, having a flame you can see, hear, and feel affords much more expressive heat control than digital displays and pan temperature alone. Most pan work is about feel rather than "heating something at x temperature for y time." Also, being able to pick the pan up a few inches to jostle the contents while still getting nearly the same heat transfer is really important for high heat sautées. It's also much much more expensive to get an induction burner that doesn't have a tiny hot spot in the middle of the pan— even with a relatively small burner, the gas flame still spreads out more, which is critical for things like searing large cuts of meat properly. In many ways, gas is a better tool from a functional perspective, environmental issues aside.

My dad is a retired mechanical engineer— he was the chief engineer at a fairly large company for years, and he knows a lot about heat transfer. He won't even entertain the idea that induction stoves are inferior to gas stoves in any way. He's probably also used a stove about two dozen times in his life and standing in front of one he vibes like someone learning to drive. It's the equivalent of his arguing I should use a compass, French curve and drafting templates when figure drawing. Induction being more precise and efficient on paper doesn't make it better in all use cases, and some use cases are really important to some people. Ultimately, the emissions and efficiency make induction the way to go, and I've only seen glib countetarguments against that. But the people telling others— even ones with vastly more experience cooking— they're wrong for preferring gas as a cooking tool are saying more about their own understanding of cooking than the other person's.

Re: Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

#117
post #64
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Induction ranges heat up water faster and use less energy than gas ranges: https://www.treehugger.com/which-more-energy-efficient-cooki... Since you mentioned that you have backup heating, I assume you don’t live in a very cold climate, in which case a heat pump for your backup heat and water heater is your most efficient lowest cost option, not a gas system. Part of your gas bill is just paying the gas company for a…

Totally agree, thank you for the balanced response. Most builders where I live install gas by default. I may have considered induction if I was building from scratch, but it’s really not worth it for us right now. Especially knowing the sources of our electricity at the moment.

If somebody installs something that requires a fee and extra connection when building with something semi-permanent like house appliances, kind of makes me think there is some sort of kickback scheme for them to do so.

Having gas appliances where I live is seen as a liability, as you have yet another maintenance item, and it contributes negatively to indoor air, so you have to have much more care regarding air handling in your areas where it is used. (unsurprisingly, demand for gas and gas appliances has plummeted ever since Russia started with their fuckery so people have been converting in droves as well.)

Re: Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

#118
Many of the comments here just don't care about the potential harmful effects called out in the article. But I think there are two important questions:

1."Should I be worried about Nitrogen Dioxide from my stove?"

2."In the absence of trustworthy, detailed research, how would I know to be worried about Nitrogen Dioxide?"

I feel the focus should be on the second question -- "big stove" seems to have prevented us from making an informed decision on the topic, and that should make us all concerned regardless of the particular dangers of Nitrogen Dioxide. Personally, I'd like to know whether it matters for my health. With the existing data, I can't tell.

Re: Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

#119
post #49

Induction limits how I can cook compared to gas burners. There are fewer techniques and methods available and is unacceptable for how I like to cook. Induction is great for some people but for many people it comes up short. Cooking anything inside requires proper venting as cooking byproducts are harmful. Cooking isn’t just about getting a pan hot quickly.

The issue isn’t that there are some cases and users where gas is the default it’s that for most cases and users it shouldn’t be.

And there is significant cost to the default being gas that hasn’t been caught by our current legislative regimes. And that the gas companies are using dodgy tactics to keep it that way.

Re: Gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good start would be to have the same tax on electricity and gas. It's absurd that gas is heavily subsidized in most of Europe: https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/news/eus-energy-taxa... Fortunately, I live in one of the few countries which don't subsidize gas (Sweden). When I visit the continent and see a gas stove, it feels like going to a museum. Induction stoves are so much better.

"Induction stoves are so much better." Depends. When the electricity comes from a gas power plant, it is way more efficient, to use the heat of the gas directly, instead of heating water and steam, running through a turbine, transmit lossy overland, convert to household power -> turn the electricity into heat again. But when you have renewable sources, it is a different story. I believe you have mostly nuclear power…

We produce 170TWh per year in Sweden. 41% is hydro, 29% is nuclear and 19% wind. So a large chunk is nuclear, but far from the majority.
Post reply on HN