I'm trying to learn German and though it's probably frowned upon, I would prefer to just use "Sie" for everything because it's less to remember and just simplifies so many things. I wonder if my ancestors had the same thoughts, which is how the formal "You" just took over as the only thing we really use in English.
Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)
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Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
Caesar didn't "introduce the voi ". Is this an urban myth that Italians believe? The tu / vous distinction in Romance languages arose in medieval times. Not only did it not exist in Caesar's time, it is absent from the centuries of Imperial-era literature in Latin. There is a wide literature on Latin forms of address. Eleanor Dickey's monograph published by Oxford University Press is a good survey.
I am not an historian but it seems so, I’ve found in the past few minutes two sources that attribute Voi to romans, its in italian but sure it can be translated, going to paste the original links unaltered https://www.elisamotterle.com/galateo-del-tu-del-lei-e-del-v... https://www.treccani.it/magazine/atlante/cultura/Diamoci_del... Beware the treccani is the most used/influential encyclopaedia in italy, so I’d tend t…
Your first link backs up exactly what I mentioned above:
> In antichità, quando si parlava latino, le formule di cortesia non esistevano … L’usanza del Voi nasce insieme a una nuova formula politica: la tetrarchia introdotta nel 293 da Diocleziano.
It was an innovation in Romance that took place centuries after Caesar and most of the Imperial era. Again, there is ample scholarly literature on this, so no need to resort to popular references like encyclopedias.
Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)
#123I had never until just now considered the possibility that “you” might be the thorn misprint of “thou”, just like how in “ye olde shoppe” was (according to legend) pronounced “the old shop” because Y got used in printing presses as a stand-in for the thorn “Þ” character they didn’t have, that looks kinda-sorta like a Y. Seems like the answers suggest I’m just imagining something that didn’t happen, but it was a fun t…
Eth is the character you’re thinking if, not thorn. Eth has voice on and thorn voice off.
The eth/thorn distinction was fairly arbitrary in actual written Old English, with thorn being more common. The modern distinction between eth and thorn being based off of voice originated in Icelandic, I think? That's the only language that still uses them in its modern form, anyways.
Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)
#124“Tum” for you in Hindi when you’re informal/talking to a peer. “Aap” for formal/elder/respected person.
Just looked it up. Looks like Tum comes from the same root as English "you". Guess a few millennia can do crazy things.
Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)
#125In my native Texan English, "y'all" can certainly act as a singular polite "you" (EDIT: though it is not terribly common). I often use "Howdy, how y'all doin?" as a polite greeting to people I don't know regardless of the number of people I am addressing, though switch to just "you" after making acquaintance. Funny enough, "howdy" is a contraction of the older "how do ye" and some people still consider it both a gree…
Interesting on the “y’all”. I’m a Texan and have never addressed a singular person as y’all. If I do address a person as y’all as in “How are y’all doing?”, it’s assumed I’m speaking of the family unit that person belongs to rather than the individual. While we Texans might find it polite or friendly, in the corporate world I’ve been told to avoid using it in emails.
Contrarily, I use it more and more in work contexts, as it's the most convenient second person plural you can use.
Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)
#126There must be some links between French and English where in French, the formal version is "vous" which sounds like "you" and the informal is "toi" which maybe sounded like "thou" in the past. (The 'th' has no equivalent in French)
The English T-V distinction seems to have originated after the Norman Conquest, where French became the language of the aristocracy; wouldn't be surprised if that was exactly the source.
Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am not an historian but it seems so, I’ve found in the past few minutes two sources that attribute Voi to romans, its in italian but sure it can be translated, going to paste the original links unaltered https://www.elisamotterle.com/galateo-del-tu-del-lei-e-del-v... https://www.treccani.it/magazine/atlante/cultura/Diamoci_del... Beware the treccani is the most used/influential encyclopaedia in italy, so I’d tend t…
Your first link backs up exactly what I mentioned above: > In antichità, quando si parlava latino, le formule di cortesia non esistevano … L’usanza del Voi nasce insieme a una nuova formula politica: la tetrarchia introdotta nel 293 da Diocleziano. It was an innovation in Romance that took place centuries after Caesar and most of the Imperial era. Again, there is ample scholarly literature on this, so no need to reso…
Yeah I saw that, but I'd say if that makes sense, that they're attributing the introduction of "Voi" within the roman era and not in the medieval times, right? The second one instead attributes it to "Roma Cesarea", to be fair, it is not the encyclopaedia that attributes it to "Roma Cesarea" but the article that influenced Mussolini quoted on the article on the encyclopaedia, so they're probably only quoting, but I don't know enough, so I'd trust you're right, thank you
Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)
#128I'm from a country where there is a different version and I hate it because it makes me overthink every time about which one is appropriate to use now with people I don't know. Maybe I should completely ditch it, and use the informal one with everyone new, just with the hopes of building immediate rapport. I must not be the only one to hate it, and surely those people who would mind me using the informal one are not…
German also has the 2 levels, but addressing the police with the informal you might get you into trouble. There's a great clip (not sure if it's a sketch show or a 360p mobile phone recording) of a guy peeking out of his apartment door and seeing a lot of coos, and he says to one of them, "Piss off, you (informal) asshole!." . The cop says "excuse me?", and the guy responds with, "Ah, sorry, you (formal) asshole!". T…
asshole is a very euphemistic translation
Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)
#129In my native Texan English, "y'all" can certainly act as a singular polite "you" (EDIT: though it is not terribly common). I often use "Howdy, how y'all doin?" as a polite greeting to people I don't know regardless of the number of people I am addressing, though switch to just "you" after making acquaintance. Funny enough, "howdy" is a contraction of the older "how do ye" and some people still consider it both a gree…
See also: yinz
Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your first link backs up exactly what I mentioned above: > In antichità, quando si parlava latino, le formule di cortesia non esistevano … L’usanza del Voi nasce insieme a una nuova formula politica: la tetrarchia introdotta nel 293 da Diocleziano. It was an innovation in Romance that took place centuries after Caesar and most of the Imperial era. Again, there is ample scholarly literature on this, so no need to reso…
Yeah I saw that, but I'd say if that makes sense, that they're attributing the introduction of "Voi" within the roman era and not in the medieval times, right? The second one instead attributes it to "Roma Cesarea", to be fair, it is not the encyclopaedia that attributes it to "Roma Cesarea" but the article that influenced Mussolini quoted on the article on the encyclopaedia, so they're probably only quoting, but I d…
Historians today tend to trace the ultimate fall of the Roman Empire to the multiple crises of the third century, even if the name of the empire limped on for a couple of centuries more. So AD 293 is quite a late date, on the threshold to a new era. From the viewpoint of modern historians, it is hard to understand how Italian Fascism could have seen anything that late as worth being proud of and emulating.