There must be some links between French and English where in French, the formal version is "vous" which sounds like "you" and the informal is "toi" which maybe sounded like "thou" in the past. (The 'th' has no equivalent in French)
Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)
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Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)
#52There’s a part in Hamlet where Claudius (Hamlet’s uncle, the one who killed Hamlet’s father and married his mother Gertrude and became king) tells Gertrude, “go talk to your son” after Hamlet angers him. Note that it’s not “our son” or even “thy son”—the choice of “you” here is really biting once you know the distinction.
Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)
#53More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou This should be common knowledge for native English speakers. It's hard to read Shakespeare without knowing this. But for non-native speaker, this would be mysterious.
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Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)
#54In my native Texan English, "y'all" can certainly act as a singular polite "you" (EDIT: though it is not terribly common). I often use "Howdy, how y'all doin?" as a polite greeting to people I don't know regardless of the number of people I am addressing, though switch to just "you" after making acquaintance. Funny enough, "howdy" is a contraction of the older "how do ye" and some people still consider it both a gree…
That’s interesting. As a non-Texan, I’d assumed that since y’all is a contraction that it would signify a more casual tone in the same way that “He’ll” is less formal than “He will”, etc.
Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)
#55There is a scene in The Lord of the Rings (Book) where Éowyn switches to using "thou" and "thee" when begging Aragorn to take her with him when he takes the Paths of the Dead.
If you don't know (as I didn't for a long time) that she has switched to intimate/informal language then the scene has less impact. Especially since Aragorn keeps things formal in his reply.
http://coco.raceme.org/literature/lordoftherings/returnking/...
Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
Interestingly the formality ladder flips at the very top of the hierarchy. Kings and popes must be addressed diffusely with plurals and layered references to official status (“Your Imperial Majesty”), but the Christian God above them is a “thou” in every European language. (Useless trivia bit… Apparently Emperor Charles V invented the styling of “His Majesty”. Before him, kings and emperors were addressed as highness…
That's because the english notion of informal/formal is a poor fit for the modern, symmetric use of T-V. It's more of a social distance, with V-form for people outside the personal sphere, and T-form for people outside the public sphere. So, as an atheist, I'd use V-form* with the Christian God, but His Believers really ought to be using T-form with Him. * Si vous plaît, j'aimerais bien savior comment fonctionne la t…
La turbulence ?
Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)
#57More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou This should be common knowledge for native English speakers. It's hard to read Shakespeare without knowing this. But for non-native speaker, this would be mysterious.
Or King James Bible - some Christians stick to the original translation (1611).
Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
I feel like this must be fading because I lived in North Yorkshire for almost 5 years and never heard a thee/thou used. On the other hand, English dialects are hyper localized so there might be villages where it is normal.
Go to Amish country!
Don't they use Pennsylvania Dutch ???.
Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)
#59Afterthought: the post below illustrates the paucity of modern English in that nowadays in modern English no distinction is made between the second and third person 'you' whereas in other languages such as German it still is.
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I've mentioned on HN previously when discussing languages that when my father was learning German his old textbook had the English thee, thou, and thine/thy as the second person for the German second person du.
One of the faux pas for English speakers when learning German is the incorrect usage of du. They mistakenly use du instead of sie because it's more informal than sie not realizing that in German it is reserved for the closest of relationships such as family, lovers etc.
Essentially, in German du — the equivalent form of the second person English thou — is still a part of the living language whereas in English thou is now archaic.
The correct usage of du became immediately obvious to me after seeing my father's textbook. For the life of me I cannot understand why modern English textbooks simply substitute you for du, it's just crazy as it leads to much confusion.
Thou and variants are understood by most native English speakers even if the term is now archaic so it makes sense to use it instead of you in textbooks for learning German. Just one additional paragraph would be needed to explain and clean up the you/du mess.
I have been trying for years to find out why the authors of modern (current) textbooks now use you instead of thou. I'd be most grateful if someone who knows the rationale behind it would post the reason.
Incidentally, my father's textbook was published sometime around 1930, so this you substitution is a relatively recent phenomena.
Re: Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
Interesting, and are those used as the informal you? Or in reference to singular?
I think Thee would be for family, friends, or someone of equal social status and thou is more formal (but much less used now - only as tha: “tha's gonna get it“).
That's fascinating , because it's originally a subject/object divide (equivalent to he/him)