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African Ports Overwhelmed by Red Sea Reroutings

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Re: African Ports Overwhelmed by Red Sea Reroutings

#201

Post by alephnerd »

throw0101b wrote: post #199
alephnerd wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do they get money for arms? Where do the arms come from? Why is the government unable to exert any realistic control within their own borders In the Houthi's case, they're a clan. The entire clan pitched in because they were persecuted under Saleh - businessmen, service men, low level govenenent officials, etc. Familial and Clan traditons are still a thing.

> Familial and Clan traditons are still a thing. I think that most W.E.I.R.D. (Western) people don't realize how much the rest of the world (for better or worse) still runs on kin-based rules. Good book going over the strangeness of the 'Western' world in many respects: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_WEIRDest_People_in_the_Wor... * https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/10/joseph-... * https://archive…

I'd disagree that a relativist argument like Henrich's would hold in this case.

Clans as a societal unit was a thing in the West as well. For example, it was a major reason for the Jacobite Rebellion in Scotland in 1745, the Irish independence movement was organized thanks to the clan system in the 19th and early 20th century, etc.

Clans as a societal unit disappeared in Western Europe when the Nuclear Family became the primary unit around the 19th-20th century

Re: African Ports Overwhelmed by Red Sea Reroutings

#202

Post by bluGill »

AlecSchueler wrote: post #110
bluGill wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is involved by coming out aginst Isreal. Thus they support this terror campaign overall.

Aren't China consistently critical of violent aggression? I don't see how their being critical of Israeli violence is supporting terrorism elsewhere. China are one of the main players in trying to encourage peace talks between Saudi Arabia and Yemen. I feel like you're maybe trying to make a different point but avoiding saying it?

both sides are violent here.

Re: African Ports Overwhelmed by Red Sea Reroutings

#203

Post by r00fus »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #75
aaomidi wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This group has stated that a ceasefire in Israel is enough for them to stop iirc.

> group has stated that a ceasefire in Israel is enough for them to stop They’ve also stated they’re targeting Israeli ships. There is no evidence any single person has control over their various armed groups.

The Houthis are not "various armed groups", they're essentially the liberation government of Yemen. They control the capital city for example. I'm pretty sure if a ceasefire were ordered, they would be highly capable of stopping the targeting.

Re: African Ports Overwhelmed by Red Sea Reroutings

#204

Post by r00fus »

whatever1 wrote: post #52

I like how Chinese do not want to get involved in protecting vessels, despite the fact that it’s their containers on board. Oh well, good old America has to save capitalism, yet again :)

Well, to be fair, the Houthi/Yemeni raids were started as a result of the Gaza occupation by Israel, and the US's failure to prevent massive war crimes in Gaza.

Their demands were simply to restore full humanitarian aid (no bombing aid trucks!) or a ceasefire. Much easier than spending hundreds of millions in escorting every tanker headed to Suez.

Re: African Ports Overwhelmed by Red Sea Reroutings

#205

Post by r00fus »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #182
AlecSchueler wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, ok. I think 1951 was a little bit before they adapted their current non interference policies. If the US and others weren't actively arming the Saudis then a regional solution might be easier to find.

> If the US and others weren't actively arming the Saudis then a regional solution might be easier to find It’s a system problem that America didn’t start. Pulling the plug on Riyadh and Jerusalem would likely lead to their collapse, plunging the region into decades of anarchy.

That or Saudi Arabia & Israel would have to play nice with the rest of the region.

Amusing since most of the arms are from US manufacturers.

Re: African Ports Overwhelmed by Red Sea Reroutings

#206

Post by r00fus »

yard2010 wrote: post #65
Geisterde wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, and history started 2 months ago. There was never a partner for peace of course, not when we gave chemical weapons to Saddam, not when we invaded and turned the place into a shooting gallery for no reason, not when we rejected the talibans offer to turn over bin laden, not when we let him escape into Pakistan, not when we turned Libya into a failed state, not when we invaded somalia, not when we propped up a d…

You're describing life. This is diplomacy, while we can argue about its effectiveness I'm certain we can agree that it's still better than China, Russia and or Iran. It's just a matter of perspective - the west is the lesser evil here

There's diplomacy and gunboat diplomacy. US seems to always prefer the latter.

Re: African Ports Overwhelmed by Red Sea Reroutings

#207

Post by r00fus »

taeric wrote: post #159
Geisterde wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im describing a pattern of US involvenent in the middle east that has killed millions of people, actually. Russia never getting a friendly welcome from the rest of europe after the collapse of the soviet union has to try to work with the only other neighbors they have, and havent had nearly as many problems and incurring far less wrath from the arab world as we have. Chinas MO is not to start wars, and to date has no…

Unfortunately for the "US is bad" narrative, conflict in the Middle East far predates US involvement. Genocides, ethnic cleansing, forced conversions, and plenty of other atrocities have been happening globally for a long time. These did not come into being with the modern world. This is not to say that there are not valid criticisms of US actions. But the Arab world deserves more criticism than it typically gets.

Before the US it was the other colonialists (mainly the Dutch and British). And before that it was the Crusades, the story goes way back.

The US, EU, etc don't have a "moral" leg to stand on when it's always a colonialist attitude they have over this region.

Re: African Ports Overwhelmed by Red Sea Reroutings

#208

Post by taeric »

r00fus wrote: post #207
taeric wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately for the "US is bad" narrative, conflict in the Middle East far predates US involvement. Genocides, ethnic cleansing, forced conversions, and plenty of other atrocities have been happening globally for a long time. These did not come into being with the modern world. This is not to say that there are not valid criticisms of US actions. But the Arab world deserves more criticism than it typically gets.

Before the US it was the other colonialists (mainly the Dutch and British). And before that it was the Crusades, the story goes way back. The US, EU, etc don't have a "moral" leg to stand on when it's always a colonialist attitude they have over this region.

If you are going back, I'd be shocked if anyone has a moral leg to stand on. The West isn't better because we came from different roots. We didn't. We have improved, though.

One of the ways we improved was an honest assessment of our faults. Not perfectly honest, but we have been improving. Much of the rest of the world powers blatantly lie on their morality. Shamefully so.

Re: African Ports Overwhelmed by Red Sea Reroutings

#210

Post by yard2010 »

smashah wrote: post #122
yard2010 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going full ISIS out of the blue one day started it. It's stupid nonetheless.

Out of the blue? Religious zealots from all over the world flying in to join a militia to conduct mass killings of men, women and children on behalf of a fascist zionist "religious" ethnostate. Sounds like it's been going on for about 76 years.

It sounds like you're supporting terrible actions of awful bad terrible people, which is just sad. Imagine jewish terrorists massacring towns in Poland because of the Holocaust
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