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Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

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Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#641

Post by dchuk »

akouri wrote: post #530
dchuk wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like stuff is pretty easy and solved for at gas stations for payment? Why wouldn’t I just pay at the “pump” (charger) exactly like we’ve all been doing for decades now? Payment done by the car automatically seems like a solution looking for a problem.

Imagine if you had to pull out your credit card every time you wanted to charge your phone at night. This is how most EV drivers charge, so the paradigm for charging an EV is totally different than filling up at a pump. I got frustrated with dealing with all these charger manufacturer's lousy apps, and that's what led Starlight to focus on building a seamless plug-and-charge experience. No apps required, just plug it…

But as a resident, I’m just paying for my electricity monthly, like everyone has been, for literally decades?

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#642

Post by grecy »

sangnoir wrote: post #638
grecy wrote: post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla are getting exactly $0 of this money (it goes to the customer). Also, every other automaker can make cars that qualify. In fact, many already do! Also note Tesla do not make a single PEHV, so in fact plenty of automakers make vehicles that qualify and Tesla doesn't. Here's the lists: EVs: https://electrek.co/2023/11/07/which-electric-vehicles-still... PEHVs: https://electrek.co/2023/11/07/which-electric-vehicle…

> Tesla are getting exactly $0 of this money (it goes to the customer). You're technically correct, when limiting to first order effects of the rebate. It would be equally technically correct to state farmers don't get any money from SNAP (it goes to the customer!), and yet SNAP is "surprisingly" (to pendants) included in the Farm bill. Your assertion that Tesla doesn't get any money from subsides is radical because…

> it suggests that either subsidies don't work, or the do work with none value making it's way to the upstream industry the government explicitly set out to support with subsidies.

Did the government set out to subsidise an upstream industry, or did they set out to incentivise consumers to purchase certain products? i.e. EVs not ICE.

> Either one of these positions need supporting evidence.

Interesting that mine do, and yours don't.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#643

Post by BluePen7 »

arghwhat wrote: post #170
phkahler wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah. The real win here is for the public. The "standard" charging plug and cables weigh a LOT, so much that my elderly mother probably couldn't use one. The "standard" also mandates the use of PowerLine Communication chips even though the signal is not over the high power conductor. We are all better off just biting the bullet now and changing everything over to the Tesla plug.

Cable weight corresponds to charging power rating and choice of materials, not plug choice. A combined CCS2 plug is chunkier and might be a bit heavier, but not compared to, say, using a fuel pump.

I actually got a CCS adapter and did exactly that with my Tesla this week.

Esso in Canada has free DC charging for a while through their Journie app.

It is like manhandling a pressurized firehose, and I'm a 30 year old male who works out. I had to actually put my phone away and use both hands to force it around, I'm accustomed to the Tesla connector I easily one-hand.

And despite how big and thick it was, it was still so weirdly heavy I had to double check it wasn't somehow secured to the ground as well.

There is a 0% chance either of my elderly parents would be able to get that plugged in.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#644

Post by BluePen7 »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #208
phkahler wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just go try them both. CCS2 Has separate AC and DC conductors, and the plug is huge owing to having 2 pair of charging pins and backward compatibility. They are more awkward and heavier than a fuel pump, and significantly heavier than the Tesla plugs. It's terrible.

> They are more awkward and heavier than a fuel pump Really? I don't doubt that Tesla's plugs are smaller and lighter, but it always seemed a bit caricature-ist about people saying how horrible the CCS plugs are and that they weigh like a million pounds or something. They certainly never seemed heavier or harder to manipulate to me compared to a gas pump, so I just never understood this complaint.

Where did you charge?

I recently tried the ones at Esso in Canada, it literally feels like 4x the weight.

I've never needed 2 handles to manipulate a gas pump or Tesla charger, but with the CCS I had to use both hands and my body weight to sorta force it around. It was wild.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#646

Post by matt-attack »

tzs wrote: post #426
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, how do you even propose to do it? If you just send the payment info via the charging plug, now you have to worry about the payment info being stored in the car and potentially stolen if the car has any security vulnerabilities, including in the charging port. If you use some kind of tokenization or similar then you're inserting third party payment processors into the system and they'll be wanting a cut…

Another reason for a card reader is that it easily handles the case of a borrowed EV. It is customary when borrowing someone's ICE car to pay for the gas used by returning the car with as much gas as it had when you borrowed it, or even with a full tank. I'd expect people will want to continue that custom when the car is an EV.

EVs could potentially handle that scenario even better than how it works with ICE cars. With ICE there’s always the error associated with how much gas was in the car to start as well as how much should you fill up when returning it. (Yes I know it’s customary to always just return a friend’s car filled to 100% regardless of the original tank state).

Nonetheless with an EV you could just hit a button saying “friend has taken possession” or “loaner mode” similar to valet mode. Upon returning the car and disabling that mode the car could present you with an accurate dollar amount of exactly what to pay your friend.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#647

Post by DeepSeaTortoise »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #342
dybber wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s where governmental regulation should kick in and require compatibility, so you aren’t forced to change charger because you either change car or power company. I expect EU to get there at some point.

> I expect EU to get there at some point. IMHO, the EU should have done this yester-five-years-ago. It's absolutely baffling they haven't already, considering they're going to outlaw ICE cars in just 6 years time, yet we don't yet have friggin EV charging regulations in place to ensure it always just works for evryone. I assume politicians are too busy with the inflation/CoL, wars, migration and how to win the upcomi…

How do you expect EU lawmakers to require a standard which quite possibly hasn't even been invented yet?

I wouldn't expect any standard becoming a legal requirement until one with open specification becomes available and a significant part of the industry has switched to it.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#648

Post by rekoil »

keep_reading wrote: post #622
rekoil wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's big, but it really doesn't matter in practice. Yes, J1772 looks nicer and is easier to handle, but it can't pump as much wattage as CCS2, and in the end that's watt (:P) matters.

It matters when it's -20C and the cable can't bend

Honestly hasn't been an issue to me.

I'd also like to point out that that's really only true with cables designed to carry currents that can't be supported by J1772 anyway...

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#649

Post by sangnoir »

grecy wrote: post #642
sangnoir wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla are getting exactly $0 of this money (it goes to the customer). You're technically correct, when limiting to first order effects of the rebate. It would be equally technically correct to state farmers don't get any money from SNAP (it goes to the customer!), and yet SNAP is "surprisingly" (to pendants) included in the Farm bill. Your assertion that Tesla doesn't get any money from subsides is radical because…

> it suggests that either subsidies don't work, or the do work with none value making it's way to the upstream industry the government explicitly set out to support with subsidies. Did the government set out to subsidise an upstream industry, or did they set out to incentivise consumers to purchase certain products? i.e. EVs not ICE. > Either one of these positions need supporting evidence. Interesting that mine do,…

> Did the government set out to subsidise an upstream industry, or did they set out to incentivise consumers to purchase certain products?

It's both. If you want customers to buy certain products in large volumes, there has to be capacity to manufacture said products in large volumes.

> Interesting that mine do, and yours don't.

Me asking you for evidence does not preclude you from asking the same of me. If you want evidence that government subsidies and incentives do work, I can readily provide that[1] - it seems pretty self-evident to me considering history, and international trade complaints about subsidies.

1. https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/15/1/534, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10131743/, cash for clunkers, etc

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#650

Post by xp84 »

recursive wrote: post #502
xp84 wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know if I agree. It’s exceedingly rare now to find a place which doesn’t accept contactless in America, but we have these problems still. Besides dumb inconsistent terminals, the main thing holding it back is (A) customers don’t use it because they either don’t know it’s much faster than our garbage chip readers, or they have been burned by hunting for the right spot to tap. And (B) even the clerks don’t use…

Sometimes I try to use the tap-to-pay. When I try, more often than not, I cannot get it to work, and then I use the chip anyway. So usually, I just use the chip to save time.

Yes, this is precisely what I think many people do. Because they are frequently punished for trying it by being made to look foolish. We all roll our eyes when someone in front of us can't seem to master the trivial task of completing a purchase, and in that moment, we are dismayed to realize WE are that person right now!
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