Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug • Hacker News Board

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#451

Post by progman32 » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 10:56 PM UTC

ketralnis wrote: post #253

jakewins wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you done any road tripping in an EV? my experience of the app-based charging landscape has been complete horror; apps don’t work, chargers don’t start, payments don’t through.. Just last month was a new app at McDonalds in Sweden, that one asks me to, in the freezing cold, scan a dirty QR code sticker, which takes me to a website I’ve never heard of that wants me to manually enter credit card info, like a phishi…

I've done a fair amount of road tripping (~15k mi over 1.5yr) along the WA/OR/CA/NV corridors where Electrify America is dense enough to use solely, which is convenient since my car came with 2 years of free charging from them. Ignoring their pervasive station reliability problems, their app is pretty bad and only barely functions. * I've had to skip a perfectly functioning station because the app thought I was still…

Every time I use the app I have to force quit it at least once to get it to stop doing whatever backend query it's doing. Doesn't help that their chargers are barely compatible with my car (2014 i3) so the charging fails to start about half the time. The machine itself rejects the charge in about ten seconds so no big deal, but the app isn't built to handle this case and takes multiple minutes to realize something is wrong. So my charging cycle is to initiate via app, plug in, see a failed charge, force quit the app, find the station again, and repeat probably twice. Probably isn't this bad with newer cars, but I love my car otherwise. Made sure to get the one with the extra scooter engine in the back, so I can just drive around on gas if it comes down to it.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#452

Post by port914 » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 10:57 PM UTC

akouri wrote: post #195

I am the founder of Starlight Charging[1]. We are working on crazy-low-cost L2 chargers for multifamily apartments. Plug-and-charge is a sine-qua-non for us. One still major unsolved problem is the lack of agreement on a standard for payment/powerline communication from the EVSE to the vehicle. OCPP 2.0.1 and ISO 15118 is supposed to bring "Plug and Charge" capabilities -- this, in theory, would allow drivers to simp…

I think you'll need to pivot soon. Tesla has it all figured out, including destination charging.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#453

Post by g_p » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 10:58 PM UTC

_ea1k wrote: post #296

dylan604 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

QR sticker manipulation is too easy of a vector for me to take anything seriously when it comes to "just scan the code, enter card data, and carry on" is just too easy to fake. it's even easier than credit card skimmers. I like QR codes and their convenience for non-critical things like marketing. For things that are direct payment links it is just too unsecure for my comfort

That's a fair point. TBH, a combination of GPS (or just smart defaulting) and entering a short code would work pretty easily as well. They could also put the QR on a small screen to make it harder to fake. A little epaper display wouldn't add much to the cost.

The problem with fancy variants on trying to "better protect" a QR code is that users don't know what to expect, and the lowest common denomenator of social compliance means they'll (have to, if they want to not be stranded) eventually scan whatever QR code is there, in an attempt to charge.

It feels like this whole "scan the QR code" is a reverse of the ideal paradigm that is (obviously) very easily exploited by scammers and opportunists, especially if payment information is requested! We spent long enough trying to train users to not enter usernames, passwords, and payment details into random web pages when asked... Now they're being asked to do it!

I don't think a QR on a small screen is the answer - people will just cover it with their sticker. If that's not good enough, they'll make a sticker that looks like a small screen with some frame around it.

We need to treat the charger itself as an untrusted piece of infrastructure, and do discovery the other way around. If a user knows they are going to an "ABC Corp" charger, there is presumably a route for them to use a relatively trustworthy discovery platform (i.e. an app store, their EV charging map already knowing where they are headed) to navigate the user to the genuine interface.

For the issue of "which charger to activate", I'm not an EV user, but this feels like if the car communicates any form of usable information to the charger, this could be used to help the user. Easy (and private) paradigms like unlocking a given charger by a map view wouldn't be intuitive for people with reduced spatial awareness (or at night when nobody has a clue where they are in relation to things on a map), but at a small enough charging station you could just ask the user to confirm if they are using "charger 3" (like gas station pump numbers), since that's the only port with a car not yet enabled to charge. For larger places, surely it's easier to use "pump numbers".

(Which is effectively what you are suggesting with a short code, but I think the QR part is a potentially bad paradigm we should try to kill off before it sticks around!)

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#454

Post by Daneel_ » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 11:00 PM UTC

akouri wrote: post #403

namdnay wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For apartments it would make more sense to have it read the same key fob you use to open the gates or whatever. Then just add it on your monthly building bill

Not a bad idea. We are looking into this. One issue is that the vendors for these keyfobs are super fragmented -- even more so than Plug & Charge adoption.

At that point why not just accept tap-and-pay in addition to the car identifier over the plug?

I feel like no matter what you’ll need to accept credit card payments in these sort of shared environments.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#455

Post by heyoni » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 11:00 PM UTC

GuB-42 wrote: post #345

Caddickbrown wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did Tesla not release all of their patents a few years back? Can people not just… use the stuff?

It came with a lot of strings attached. For instance, in order to use Tesla patents a company cannot attack Tesla for any intellectual property matter. Also, Tesla still makes use of trade secrets and its design patents are not released. Which is the reason why about no one took on the offer, it is a legal minefield for not that much value. NACS became a thing only after they truly released the standard.

What was missing from NACS? Design schematics or something? Until now I was under the impression that their patent release was a noble gesture.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#456

Post by mendigou » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 11:02 PM UTC

Acinyx wrote: post #378

pitaj wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? For high-power charging, DC is better anyways. For low-power charging, having extra phases is useless.

In europe the connections are a lot lower amperage, around here for example 35 ampere per phase. But having 3 phases is pretty normal and the standard in any new house, which means 3 phases can let you charge at 22kW with a few Ampere left, while with 1 phase you can only charge at 7 KW. That does make it useful to charge it in a few hours in the afternoon, instead of having to wiat the night.

In which European country is triphasic power for houses becoming normal?

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#457

Post by yardie » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 11:04 PM UTC

chrisjc wrote: post #171

yardie wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the bigger goal is the viability of the network effect (clustering) of electric cars. When Tesla was the only electric car company most buyers thought it was neat but didn't really consider it. A lot of buyers want their next vehicle to be EV but have range anxiety. While the Model 3/Y was top seller amongst EV buyers it's overall marketshare is still miniscule. More competition drives more churn which creates…

> While the Model 3/Y was top seller amongst EV buyers it's overall marketshare is still miniscule. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your statement, but the Model Y has become the best selling car in the world. That includes ICE vehicles, not just EVs. If you exclude trucks, I think it has also recently become the best selling car in the US, overtaking the Rav4.

Tesla is intentionally obtuse about their numbers. But the Corolla still reigns supreme at +700k. They combine the total sales of 3+Y against the Corolla.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-news/a44600661/is-tes...

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#458

Post by progman32 » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 11:06 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #320

_ea1k wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fair point. TBH, a combination of GPS (or just smart defaulting) and entering a short code would work pretty easily as well. They could also put the QR on a small screen to make it harder to fake. A little epaper display wouldn't add much to the cost.

also, who plugs in daily? do you fuel your ICE car daily? other than professional drivers, i'm doubting this is the normal routine for normal drivers. the irrational idea that EVs need to be plugged in at any and every opportunity is something that should be rationalized away. i don't own an EV, so maybe my preconceived ideas of only charging when necessary may be what needs updating??? however, regular battery maint…

When my car is home, it's plugged in always. That way I can pre warm or cool the cabin before I leave, and the car dumps a few more percent into the battery (usually it internally charges to about 80% to save the battery, but if it knows you're leaving soon it bumps it up). Then again my car is 2014 and has a much smaller battery than modern cars.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#459

Post by xp84 » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 11:07 PM UTC

Affric wrote: post #439

VBprogrammer wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, contactless is ubiquitous in the UK – the experience is almost always seamless. The only exception being the odd reader with the antenna in a stupid place (these have gotten less common over time) or when your bank decides to force a pin check.

I want to echo this. When contactless is ubiquitous there are pretty much no problems.

I don’t know if I agree. It’s exceedingly rare now to find a place which doesn’t accept contactless in America, but we have these problems still.

Besides dumb inconsistent terminals, the main thing holding it back is (A) customers don’t use it because they either don’t know it’s much faster than our garbage chip readers, or they have been burned by hunting for the right spot to tap. And (B) even the clerks don’t use it because until about this year there was a significant fraction of cards out there without NFC and who wants to hunt for the logo instead of just always shoving it in the (stupid slow) chip reader. There still might be plenty if you count debit cards which I never use but are very popular.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#460

Post by g_p » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 11:09 PM UTC

VBprogrammer wrote: post #407

Animats wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tap-and-pay RF people need to get their act together. The average number of tries needed to get a good read is > 1. For Veriphone units, > 2. Please make it clear where, exactly, the near-field antenna is. Behind the screen? Behind the logo that looks like WiFi? Somewhere inside a separate hockey-puck device? And indicate when the reader is active, too. Light up something. One place I visit regularly had a POS sy…

For what it's worth, contactless is ubiquitous in the UK – the experience is almost always seamless. The only exception being the odd reader with the antenna in a stupid place (these have gotten less common over time) or when your bank decides to force a pin check.

How would paying for an EV charge work like this? Would you select an amount of credit in currency (presumably via buttons on the charger?) then tap-to-pay for that amount?

(I believe there are some limitations on tap-to-pay transactions to prevent a merchant presenting the transaction with a different value after actually tapping the card.)

I think a lot of "pay at pump" fuel stations require a full insertion of the card to pre-authorize a large amount, then release it as a partial refund once the amount of fuel dispensed is known.

Would this be a barrier to EV charging, if you need a way to communicate this upfront, or have to effectively replicate out EMV infrastructure on totally unmonitored terminals with PIN readers (and likely the next card skimming scandal brewing)?

Also, how would contactless-only work for cards that get soft locked to be inserted for a PIN check? Would there be a way for EV chargers to be exempted from this? Or would people end up stuck and unable to charge as there's no available place with a PIN reader they can use to unlock their contactless payments?