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Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

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Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#521

Post by xpe »

akouri wrote: post #195

I am the founder of Starlight Charging[1]. We are working on crazy-low-cost L2 chargers for multifamily apartments. Plug-and-charge is a sine-qua-non for us. One still major unsolved problem is the lack of agreement on a standard for payment/powerline communication from the EVSE to the vehicle. OCPP 2.0.1 and ISO 15118 is supposed to bring "Plug and Charge" capabilities -- this, in theory, would allow drivers to simp…

Some feedback: I only barely realized "plug-and-charge" means something specific. [1] Generally speaking, I wouldn't expect people to know what you mean by the phrase. The problem is that people think they know because it sounds so obvious. The phrase comes across more like: "obviously, yeah, I plug it in and it charges". That understanding leaves vague the number of steps required between "plug" and "charge".

[1] e.g. "The Plug and Charge protocol tells the charging station what kind of EV you're plugging in and conveniently bills you." from https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35044132/plug-and-charge-...

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#522

Post by rconti »

brnt wrote: post #389
hcal wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, many or most don't have credit card terminals. You plug in, load an app, find you station, select a port number, tell it to start and hope it works. It doesn't sound that bad, but the chargers janky, the apps are janky and it takes a long time often with multiple attempts.

Installing random apps sounds janky as hell. I only install vetted apps from F droid. I wouldn't give a charging station access to my phone.

It is janky as hell, but it sounds like EV owners are making their lives more difficult in just slightly different ways from how you're making your life more difficult :)

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#523

Post by BenjiWiebe »

vel0city wrote: post #313
sebazzz wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The electricity grid has three phases in the US right? Are devices seldom connected to three phases?

Three phase power is out there but you never see it in residential and rarely in commercial. It's pretty much just an industrial kind of thing.

I disagree with the rarely in commercial. It's extremely common in commercial environments from what I've seen.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#524

Post by stephen_g »

bluGill wrote: post #223
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you have three feeds giving you three phases to use, so 3x the power available to you. Out here, even electric stoves (with ovens) have 3 phase connection options and tankless water heaters almost exclusively come as 3 phase models.

Power is volts times amps. 3 phase just means you add the power of all three phases, but you can get the same power from one phase with a little algebra. You need different size wires and breakers, but there is nothing there that 3 phases gives you.

You’re again talking in hypotheticals and ignoring the practical factors.

Around here, it’s usual for the utilities to limit residential services to 80A per phase (commercial properties can get a lot more).

So for a residential property you can literally get three times as much power by upgrading from single phase (which is common for small houses) to three phase (less common around here but available) due to this limit.

In theory I could just get a single phase service of three times the current, but in the real world the utility won’t give me that and makes me upgrade to three-phase.

This is by policy, since it helps balance the phases in the grid back to the local transformer, which the utility wants, so they also limit, for example, how much solar export you can do per phase for residential property - theoretically I should be able to export 15 kW on a single phase, but they don’t let me, so in the real world I am limited to 5 kW per phase, meaning I can only export 5 kW on single phase or 15 kW on three phase.

So in terms of pure electrical theory you are correct, but when thinking about real world policies of electrical utilities due to how power grids are designed, you do get a lot of benefit from three-phase.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#525

Post by BenjiWiebe »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #234
bluGill wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power is volts times amps. 3 phase just means you add the power of all three phases, but you can get the same power from one phase with a little algebra. You need different size wires and breakers, but there is nothing there that 3 phases gives you.

Let's say you have a cable with 2.5mm^2 wires, each of which can carry 20A of current to stay within code. At 230V that's 4600W. Now you want more power, to keep the math simple, let's say 13800W (3x the power above). With a one phase system, for 3x the power, you need 3x the size of wire, so 7.5mm^2, ie. 3x the amount of copper (since all wires, neutral and PE have to be that size too). With a three phase system, yo…

Not sure what PE is in this example, but you don't need a neutral in 3 phase.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#526

Post by applied_heat »

bluGill wrote: post #223
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you have three feeds giving you three phases to use, so 3x the power available to you. Out here, even electric stoves (with ovens) have 3 phase connection options and tankless water heaters almost exclusively come as 3 phase models.

Power is volts times amps. 3 phase just means you add the power of all three phases, but you can get the same power from one phase with a little algebra. You need different size wires and breakers, but there is nothing there that 3 phases gives you.

P=sqrt(3) IV cos Theta not just three times IV

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#527

Post by [deleted] »

xpe wrote: post #521
akouri wrote: post #195

I am the founder of Starlight Charging[1]. We are working on crazy-low-cost L2 chargers for multifamily apartments. Plug-and-charge is a sine-qua-non for us. One still major unsolved problem is the lack of agreement on a standard for payment/powerline communication from the EVSE to the vehicle. OCPP 2.0.1 and ISO 15118 is supposed to bring "Plug and Charge" capabilities -- this, in theory, would allow drivers to simp…

Some feedback: I only barely realized "plug-and-charge" means something specific. [1] Generally speaking, I wouldn't expect people to know what you mean by the phrase. The problem is that people think they know because it sounds so obvious. The phrase comes across more like: "obviously, yeah, I plug it in and it charges". That understanding leaves vague the number of steps required between "plug" and "charge". [1] e.…

[deleted]

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#528

Post by dchuk »

akouri wrote: post #195

I am the founder of Starlight Charging[1]. We are working on crazy-low-cost L2 chargers for multifamily apartments. Plug-and-charge is a sine-qua-non for us. One still major unsolved problem is the lack of agreement on a standard for payment/powerline communication from the EVSE to the vehicle. OCPP 2.0.1 and ISO 15118 is supposed to bring "Plug and Charge" capabilities -- this, in theory, would allow drivers to simp…

I feel like stuff is pretty easy and solved for at gas stations for payment? Why wouldn’t I just pay at the “pump” (charger) exactly like we’ve all been doing for decades now?

Payment done by the car automatically seems like a solution looking for a problem.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#529

Post by akouri »

xpe wrote: post #521
akouri wrote: post #195

I am the founder of Starlight Charging[1]. We are working on crazy-low-cost L2 chargers for multifamily apartments. Plug-and-charge is a sine-qua-non for us. One still major unsolved problem is the lack of agreement on a standard for payment/powerline communication from the EVSE to the vehicle. OCPP 2.0.1 and ISO 15118 is supposed to bring "Plug and Charge" capabilities -- this, in theory, would allow drivers to simp…

Some feedback: I only barely realized "plug-and-charge" means something specific. [1] Generally speaking, I wouldn't expect people to know what you mean by the phrase. The problem is that people think they know because it sounds so obvious. The phrase comes across more like: "obviously, yeah, I plug it in and it charges". That understanding leaves vague the number of steps required between "plug" and "charge". [1] e.…

This is helpful. Generally the customers that land on our website are people who are researching which EV charging solution to install in their apartment complex, so I assumed that they already knew the term. But I guess it's helpful to spell it out.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#530

Post by akouri »

dchuk wrote: post #528
akouri wrote: post #195

I am the founder of Starlight Charging[1]. We are working on crazy-low-cost L2 chargers for multifamily apartments. Plug-and-charge is a sine-qua-non for us. One still major unsolved problem is the lack of agreement on a standard for payment/powerline communication from the EVSE to the vehicle. OCPP 2.0.1 and ISO 15118 is supposed to bring "Plug and Charge" capabilities -- this, in theory, would allow drivers to simp…

I feel like stuff is pretty easy and solved for at gas stations for payment? Why wouldn’t I just pay at the “pump” (charger) exactly like we’ve all been doing for decades now? Payment done by the car automatically seems like a solution looking for a problem.

Imagine if you had to pull out your credit card every time you wanted to charge your phone at night. This is how most EV drivers charge, so the paradigm for charging an EV is totally different than filling up at a pump.

I got frustrated with dealing with all these charger manufacturer's lousy apps, and that's what led Starlight to focus on building a seamless plug-and-charge experience. No apps required, just plug it in and go.

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