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Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

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Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#471

Post by sib »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #221
sib wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how much margin that Tesla will be making on the charging. I don't think the financial details of these deals have been disclosed. Adding lots of revenue but with no margin doesn't really add value to Tesla. (Of course, to the extent they get funding from the government or other manufacturers to offset the capex required for building out more stations and chargers, that's great for Tesla & anyone.)

In states where they are registered as an energy provider? A lot. A 10-80% charge will net Tesla $20. Comparatively a gas station that refills a midsize car with a 20 gallon tank will only net $6.

In Tesla's most recent quarter, their revenue for "Services & Other," which is where Supercharging lives, was $2,166M, while the cost of revenue for Services & Other was $2,037M. So, a gross profit of $129M on revenue of $2,166M or ~6% gross margin. This is in line with their previous statements that they run the Supercharging network at breakeven - although they don't seem to publicly break out SC-specific numbers from the Services & Other totals.

There may be outlier locations, but overall Supercharging is not a big profit center for them. Maybe it'll improve with scale.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#472

Post by dylan604 »

olyjohn wrote: post #413
dylan604 wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must not have had a dad that harped on you about letting your tank get below 50%. If I let mine get down to 10%, my dad would have taken my keys away. There are many reasons people give for this that do not involve zombies and go bags

It's pretty much completely pointless to worry about when you fill up your tank. Just fill it up when you need or want to.

nonsense like that gets you sent to your room without dinner.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#473

Post by g_p »

baloki wrote: post #466
g_p wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would paying for an EV charge work like this? Would you select an amount of credit in currency (presumably via buttons on the charger?) then tap-to-pay for that amount? (I believe there are some limitations on tap-to-pay transactions to prevent a merchant presenting the transaction with a different value after actually tapping the card.) I think a lot of "pay at pump" fuel stations require a full insertion of the…

They generally pre-auth for either £20 or £40 and then update the amount post-transaction. In terms of PIN check, the card is just declined with an appropriate error message because you can’t insert it and the next time you use a contactless machine it asks for the card to be inserted and a PIN entered. For petrol (gas) pumps in the UK it generally auths either £1 or £99.

Makes sense and matched my understanding of the pay at pump preauth for a fixed amount.

I guess the issue then becomes relying on contactless (only) without the hardware for full EMV with PIN, as then someone whose card has been used contactless one too many times can't charge, and potentially ends up stuck there.

It does feel like contactless is a good convenience measure, but probably isn't ideal as the only mechanism on a reader for charging infrastructure.

Unrelated to this, but not being able to initiate charging without internet access (for online auth of cards, and the ones that can only be used online) also is likely to become an issue in rural areas, as well as give quite a few resilience issues if cloud infrastructure isn't available, or internet backhaul from the area is disrupted. Even once power is restored after a storm, if comms are down (like with Storm Arwen), this doesn't sound ideal for EV charging...

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#474

Post by Retric »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #278
afavour wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO that would be better solved by mandating tap and pay payment at EV charging spots. Integrating payments into the charging standard feels like a wild overcomplication by comparison.

Not only that, how do you even propose to do it? If you just send the payment info via the charging plug, now you have to worry about the payment info being stored in the car and potentially stolen if the car has any security vulnerabilities, including in the charging port. If you use some kind of tokenization or similar then you're inserting third party payment processors into the system and they'll be wanting a cut…

Cars don’t need to have credit card details onboard.

Hypothetical standard: Charger lets car open a low bandwidth internet connection. Car uses it (or cellular) to open an encrypted channel to a 3rd part service (Tesla/Visa/whatever) saying it’s VIN, password, and the charger’s ID. Charger gets payment from 3rd party.

PS: I would rather chargers just had working credit card readers, but individual chargers don’t do many transactions per day so apps are a cost saving thing.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#475

Post by tharkun__ »

g_p wrote: post #460
VBprogrammer wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, contactless is ubiquitous in the UK – the experience is almost always seamless. The only exception being the odd reader with the antenna in a stupid place (these have gotten less common over time) or when your bank decides to force a pin check.

How would paying for an EV charge work like this? Would you select an amount of credit in currency (presumably via buttons on the charger?) then tap-to-pay for that amount? (I believe there are some limitations on tap-to-pay transactions to prevent a merchant presenting the transaction with a different value after actually tapping the card.) I think a lot of "pay at pump" fuel stations require a full insertion of the…

What's a large amount? I haven't inserted my card at Costco for a very long time now. Just tap.

If the pump pre-authorizes an amount (many non-Costco gas stations I go to make you choose an amount to authorize) it simply never captures more than was actually used.

Now why would any of this be fundamentally different for EVs? You have a rough gauge for how much "fuel" i.e. "juice" you need, pre-authorize enough money but only capture what actually got used. Done. Why do EVs need to be special?

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#477

Post by ProfessorZoom »

jakewins wrote: post #237
why_at wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain why you feel plug-and-charge is so important? I have used chargers with and without it and while it is slightly more convenient to just plug in and go, it doesn't feel like such a huge improvement that I absolutely need it. I agree that having a different app for every brand of charging station would be annoying, but what about just accepting a credit card the way we do with gas stations now?

Have you done any road tripping in an EV? my experience of the app-based charging landscape has been complete horror; apps don’t work, chargers don’t start, payments don’t through.. Just last month was a new app at McDonalds in Sweden, that one asks me to, in the freezing cold, scan a dirty QR code sticker, which takes me to a website I’ve never heard of that wants me to manually enter credit card info, like a phishi…

You have this problem because they’re not Tesla. Thats why everyone is adopting NACS and Tesla superchargers

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#478

Post by moogly »

hnburnsy wrote: post #312
apexalpha wrote: post #135

I understand the ridicule that the EU gets sometimes, and especially so when trying to regulate stuff like AI where it seems the EU wants to regulate more than to create start ups etc... But this is one thing the EU just nailed the hammer into the wood immediatly, and rightly so. I can't even remember the time it was. Maybe 2013? 2014? They just set a standard and everyone, even Tesla, adopted it. Every single EV can…

Serious question is every EU charger outlet billed in a common way, like with cash, an app, debit/credit card, in car screen, with a payment screen, or preconfigured to bill seamlessly? Seems like the billing issues at non Tesla chargers in the US were a large part of the issues..

A law was passed earlier this year that means mandatory card/contactless payment, and prices clearly shown (as opposed being hidden in an app). Unclear exactly when it will be enacted though.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#479

Post by alistairSH »

heyoni wrote: post #448
alistairSH wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it need to be app based? Can’t you use CC terminals like a normal gas station? Swipe or tap card like any other payment?

Isn’t that what OP is saying? That it shouldn’t be app based and that the new ISO would resolve that by having the car communicate with the charging station? /edit I may have misread that /edit2 the proposal uses certificate exchange between the car and the charging station. No app.

Ah, I hyper-focused on the dead phone and many apps and totally missed the communication hopefully moves directly between car and charger.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#480

Post by ip26 »

paul7986 wrote: post #205
njovin wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the EV. A few years back I did a ~400 mile road trip in a Model Y. We had to make one top-up charging stop which took about 15 minutes. We walked to a spot and got a snack while we waited. A similarly-sized ICE vehicle could have possibly done the trip without a stop, or required a quick 5-minute top-up depending on conditions. I've done lots of long road trips in ICE vehicles and we usually stop to walk a…

I travel a lot in my SUV in remote areas like between Reno and Vegas. As a gas driver I like the fact there's a gas station in remote areas and it takes me three minutes to fill my tank and go. When do we think as interested EV driver will my driving experience match my gas car diving experience and needs? Are we there yet?

FWIW there are ~9 superchargers along Highway 95 between Reno and Vegas, and it's a 400 mile trip. You would probably only need to stop and charge once.
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