Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug • Hacker News Board

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#251

Post by bluGill » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 7:20 PM UTC

paul7986 wrote: post #205

njovin wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the EV. A few years back I did a ~400 mile road trip in a Model Y. We had to make one top-up charging stop which took about 15 minutes. We walked to a spot and got a snack while we waited. A similarly-sized ICE vehicle could have possibly done the trip without a stop, or required a quick 5-minute top-up depending on conditions. I've done lots of long road trips in ICE vehicles and we usually stop to walk a…

I travel a lot in my SUV in remote areas like between Reno and Vegas. As a gas driver I like the fact there's a gas station in remote areas and it takes me three minutes to fill my tank and go. When do we think as interested EV driver will my driving experience match my gas car diving experience and needs? Are we there yet?

I'm guessing 5-10 years. However in 30 years the opposite question will be the case - if you are driving a gas car you will have to plan ahead. As EVs take over gas stations will start to disappear.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#252

Post by afavour » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 7:23 PM UTC

jakewins wrote: post #237

why_at wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain why you feel plug-and-charge is so important? I have used chargers with and without it and while it is slightly more convenient to just plug in and go, it doesn't feel like such a huge improvement that I absolutely need it. I agree that having a different app for every brand of charging station would be annoying, but what about just accepting a credit card the way we do with gas stations now?

Have you done any road tripping in an EV? my experience of the app-based charging landscape has been complete horror; apps don’t work, chargers don’t start, payments don’t through.. Just last month was a new app at McDonalds in Sweden, that one asks me to, in the freezing cold, scan a dirty QR code sticker, which takes me to a website I’ve never heard of that wants me to manually enter credit card info, like a phishi…

IMO that would be better solved by mandating tap and pay payment at EV charging spots. Integrating payments into the charging standard feels like a wild overcomplication by comparison.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#253

Post by ketralnis » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 7:25 PM UTC

jakewins wrote: post #237

why_at wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain why you feel plug-and-charge is so important? I have used chargers with and without it and while it is slightly more convenient to just plug in and go, it doesn't feel like such a huge improvement that I absolutely need it. I agree that having a different app for every brand of charging station would be annoying, but what about just accepting a credit card the way we do with gas stations now?

Have you done any road tripping in an EV? my experience of the app-based charging landscape has been complete horror; apps don’t work, chargers don’t start, payments don’t through.. Just last month was a new app at McDonalds in Sweden, that one asks me to, in the freezing cold, scan a dirty QR code sticker, which takes me to a website I’ve never heard of that wants me to manually enter credit card info, like a phishi…

I've done a fair amount of road tripping (~15k mi over 1.5yr) along the WA/OR/CA/NV corridors where Electrify America is dense enough to use solely, which is convenient since my car came with 2 years of free charging from them.

Ignoring their pervasive station reliability problems, their app is pretty bad and only barely functions.

* I've had to skip a perfectly functioning station because the app thought I was still charging from the previous time and wouldn't change its mind about it.

* Their Carplay app has literally never worked for me, not once (usually it shows me still charging from a session >1wk ago even when the regular app doesn't, sometimes it doesn't boot, sometimes it shows me as not logged in. The main screen has never once rendered.).

* One of their level 2 stations (which tend even less reliable) existed in the app on about 50% of refreshes.

* The app requires a pretty solid signal to work at all since it seems to consult their API to query for stations near where you are and then you guess at which one it is ("is this the target one or the mall one? it's the target that's in the mall?") which is pretty silly when you're parked at the station so it's in range of your hands and eyes.

* I eventually figured out that I can add the EA plan to my Apple Wallet and tap the phone instead of ever opening the app, but that seems to randomly select between the "free" plan (rather, included in the purchase price of my car) and the $10 balance that they make me maintain for god-knows-why when at California electricity prices no charge has ever been below $10.

* The stations have credit card readers which I've never tried to use but almost always when I see somebody having trouble at a station it's because they're fighting with that thing. I assume EA's response would be "just use the app, it's so much better"

That's all just one app, not a slew of them for every charging network in my area (which also includes at least evgo & chargepoint just to cover the big ones). The sooner this app bullshit can die the better.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#254

Post by dylan604 » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 7:25 PM UTC

_ea1k wrote: post #240

why_at wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain why you feel plug-and-charge is so important? I have used chargers with and without it and while it is slightly more convenient to just plug in and go, it doesn't feel like such a huge improvement that I absolutely need it. I agree that having a different app for every brand of charging station would be annoying, but what about just accepting a credit card the way we do with gas stations now?

With an L2 at an apartment, you might be plugging in daily. It'd be nice to keep the steps as minimal as possible. Having said that, something like an NFC card + QR code support would be good enough, IMO. The main thing would be to keep the app as simple and fast as possible.

QR sticker manipulation is too easy of a vector for me to take anything seriously when it comes to "just scan the code, enter card data, and carry on" is just too easy to fake. it's even easier than credit card skimmers. I like QR codes and their convenience for non-critical things like marketing. For things that are direct payment links it is just too unsecure for my comfort

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#255

Post by antonjs » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 7:26 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #229

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Thank you Tesla for helping bring about a better standard here! You should probably thank the government, too. When the feds decided they were going to put billions in subsidies to a national charging network, the original regulations basically required CCS, because that was really the only cross-platform game in town - Tesla was proprietary and not open to other automakers. In a brilliant bit of chutzpah, in respo…

A large number of standards are what one company did on their own and then made available to everybody via the likes of ANSI/ECMA/ISO. There are a number of reasons a company would want to do this.

Rough consensus, running chargers at work. [1]

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rough_consensus

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#256

Post by whalesalad » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 7:26 PM UTC

l72 wrote: post #250

While this sounds good, why are we so focused on charging stations? It seems to me, it would make much more sense to have a series of batteries that can quickly be removed, and have battery exchanges. Then, if you need a charge, you pull over to a battery exchange, swap out batteries in a few seconds, and go on your way. I have seen this in China with electric scooters, and it seems like it could scale well for cars…

For most EV's (specifically Tesla) the battery is a structural component of the vehicle (for better or for worse).

Would require a complete architectural shift. Also, they would be incredibly heavy and difficult to swap. Would require multiple smaller batteries. People would abuse them. Would require huge inventory of batteries all over the place. Imagine going on a long road trip, you wouldn't bring batteries with you. You'd swap them along the way. What if a particular vendor/station is out of batteries for the day? Or doesn't have your particular flavor of battery because (like we have seen with charging ports in this exact story) manufacturers couldn't agree on the interface/size? Or the batteries they have are abused and low quality / at end of life? This is very common with scooters. It would be a shit show.

On the other hand, electricity is essentially fluid. It does not require a container. As battery tech improves and as high voltage charging becomes more commonplace, plugging in to charge won't be so bad.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#257

Post by dylan604 » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 7:27 PM UTC

solatic wrote: post #238

why_at wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain why you feel plug-and-charge is so important? I have used chargers with and without it and while it is slightly more convenient to just plug in and go, it doesn't feel like such a huge improvement that I absolutely need it. I agree that having a different app for every brand of charging station would be annoying, but what about just accepting a credit card the way we do with gas stations now?

Recharging electric vehicles is not like refilling gas-powered cars. You will intentionally drive a gas vehicle down to 20%, even 10% tank left before going out of your way to a gas station, maybe once a week on average. But with electric cars, you should intentionally be plugging in to recharge as frequently as possible, at least once a day, as you are penalized (with longer recharge times) the longer you go between…

You must not have had a dad that harped on you about letting your tank get below 50%. If I let mine get down to 10%, my dad would have taken my keys away. There are many reasons people give for this that do not involve zombies and go bags

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#258

Post by hnburnsy » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 7:27 PM UTC

malermeister wrote: post #98

mupuff1234 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it also takes away Tesla's biggest advantage, no? The charging network was a big reason to buy a tesla and now that's gone. So perhaps they will actually end up losing more revenue than gaining.

Tesla was always going to lose the EV battle in the long run - if not to VW and co, then to BYD and co. This lets them pivot to something where they have a huge moat.

Seems like the auto market is plenty large enough for multiple winners.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#259

Post by dzhiurgis » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 7:29 PM UTC

paul7986 wrote: post #215

omnimus wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe in future with different approach like https://youtube.com/watch?v=VmWL1hZQmD0

Oh just maybe (yikes) ..I'm on the fence about buying an EV as gas car provides me the best experience for my needs. I drive a Ton and in remote areas too

Do those places have no power sockets?

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#260

Post by martythemaniak » Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 7:30 PM UTC

zackmorris wrote: post #200

This makes me sad in a way that's a little hard to articulate. But I'll try! I plug my $9000 2013 Nissan Leaf into an ordinary 120V extension cord each night so I can commute to a neighboring city for work, and the electricity costs me $20/mo. I also have a 1986 Toyota pickup like on Back to the Future that I had to gas up every other week, using 30 gallons of gas per month and costing over $100. So the operating cos…

I don't understand your comment. Tesla sells a charger for $230 that comes with 120V/15A and 240V/50A connectors (https://shop.tesla.com/product/mobile-connector). You can also buy a connectors for every type of socket there is (https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters).

I had a 240V outlet installed in my garage and plug that in there to charge. I also bring it with me if I go to cottages, etc. I've used that with questionable sockets and extension cables and the charging speed automatically switches to lower amps if it can't draw the full 12A. You install a dedicated charger if you want 80A or to mount it outside (it's weatherproof)

What am I missing?