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Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

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Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#231

Post by bluGill »

wil421 wrote: post #178
tw04 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Charging networks are IMHO not a viable long term business model. Sort of like gas stations weren't a viable long-term business model? > Nobody wants the stupid app, they want to charge at McDonalds along the highway while they grab something to eat. So you should put your chargers near convenient amenities... like a convenience store... like a gas station?

Tesla isn’t building C-Stores that sell Gas or Electrons. The superchargers I’ve seen are in some random parking lot without a restroom or convenience store selling stuff.

Some of them, but I've also seen Tesla at various truck stops. In rural areas building at a convenience store make sense: they already have restrooms, some form of restaurant and various other things to buy on site - everything a traveler needs for a quick break to fill the car before getting back on the road.

In cities I think we will see less chargers as most people just go home to charge. However in poor areas they will be at places like grocery stores so you those who don't have at-home charging can charge and shop.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#232

Post by bluGill »

mupuff1234 wrote: post #192
newsclues wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Infrastructure (to provide fuel or energy for transportation) is a long term business model.

Aren't superchargers just the endpoint? Isn't the actual infrastructure mostly the power/energy companies?

Yes, but those already have most of the needed infrastructure. Most gas stations have enough power to run a couple level chargers - they just don't have the chargers (note I said 1 or 2 chargers, not 8+ which is what anyone serious about charging needs to install)

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#233

Post by ghaff »

SEJeff wrote: post #183
ghaff wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Metric is widely used in the US in many contexts where it actually matter. That we generally use (our version of) Imperial units in the kitchen or in home construction is sort of irrelevant however riled up it gets some Europeans--which is maybe a bit of a net plus.

The most hilarious thing is that the Imperial units came from the UK. They should blame the UK for the Imperial units, not us.

The reality is that the Anglosphere as a whole uses a hybrid system to greater or lesser degrees. Heck, stones are still used at least somewhat in the UK. And I'd argue that Fahrenheit is actually a pretty decent system for day-to-day use. The degrees are smaller and it's not really that hard to remember 32 degrees is freezing. And sub-zero is fricking cold in most places. If you want to be all-on scientific, use Kelvin. But that would be silly for day-to-day use.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#234

Post by ajsnigrutin »

bluGill wrote: post #223
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you have three feeds giving you three phases to use, so 3x the power available to you. Out here, even electric stoves (with ovens) have 3 phase connection options and tankless water heaters almost exclusively come as 3 phase models.

Power is volts times amps. 3 phase just means you add the power of all three phases, but you can get the same power from one phase with a little algebra. You need different size wires and breakers, but there is nothing there that 3 phases gives you.

Let's say you have a cable with 2.5mm^2 wires, each of which can carry 20A of current to stay within code. At 230V that's 4600W.

Now you want more power, to keep the math simple, let's say 13800W (3x the power above).

With a one phase system, for 3x the power, you need 3x the size of wire, so 7.5mm^2, ie. 3x the amount of copper (since all wires, neutral and PE have to be that size too).

With a three phase system, you can get the same power with 3x2.5mm^2 live wires (+1 neutral + 1 PE), so instead of 3x the amount of copper, you only need 5/3's of copper to get 3x the power.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#235

Post by iso8859-1 »

rubyn00bie wrote: post #112
iso8859-1 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will Greenland use NACS? Probably not.

Huh? It feels like you’re just being overly pedantic for no reason. From Wikipedia and numerous other sources: > Though a part of the continent of North America, Greenland has been politically and culturally associated with Europe.

It's not even clear if it will prevail in México: https://mobilityportal.lat/carga-nacs-estandarizacion-nortea...

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#236

Post by bluGill »

ggreer wrote: post #166
bwat49 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fragmented infrastructure benefits no one. Imagine if you could only fill up your ICE vehicle at shell stations because of your vehicle's brand. Fragmentation of the charging infrastructure puts a hard limit on EV adoption, they will never replace ICE vehicles unless the infrastructure becomes as ubiquitous as gas stations.

It's hard to make direct analogies because unlike gas vehicles, EVs "refuel" at home. You wake up every day with a full tank of gas. Fast DC chargers are mostly for road trips. And while it's a good thing that everyone has adopted the same charging standard, branding is just as important. Gas at gas stations is fungible. EV chargers are most certainly not. Right now Tesla's charging network is the only option that is…

So long as the charger supports the same connector they all work - some might be a level2 charger that takes forever, but you plug it into any car.

Gas stations can choose from 3-10 grades of gas (octane, ethanol content, road tax) to sell, and 2-6 grades of diesel (cetane, gel point, road tax) depending on what the distributor offers - no station sells them all (at least not that I'm aware of), and getting the wrong fuel can be fatal. Stations also can choose their own additive package which can make a difference.

Note that in almost all cases there is only one distributor you can buy from. Electric is generally a legal monopoly, while gasoline the closest supplier generally has a pipeline and thus can offer much cheaper prices so while it is legal to buy elsewhere it isn't practical.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#237

Post by jakewins »

why_at wrote: post #224
akouri wrote: post #195

I am the founder of Starlight Charging[1]. We are working on crazy-low-cost L2 chargers for multifamily apartments. Plug-and-charge is a sine-qua-non for us. One still major unsolved problem is the lack of agreement on a standard for payment/powerline communication from the EVSE to the vehicle. OCPP 2.0.1 and ISO 15118 is supposed to bring "Plug and Charge" capabilities -- this, in theory, would allow drivers to simp…

Can you explain why you feel plug-and-charge is so important? I have used chargers with and without it and while it is slightly more convenient to just plug in and go, it doesn't feel like such a huge improvement that I absolutely need it. I agree that having a different app for every brand of charging station would be annoying, but what about just accepting a credit card the way we do with gas stations now?

Have you done any road tripping in an EV? my experience of the app-based charging landscape has been complete horror; apps don’t work, chargers don’t start, payments don’t through..

Just last month was a new app at McDonalds in Sweden, that one asks me to, in the freezing cold, scan a dirty QR code sticker, which takes me to a website I’ve never heard of that wants me to manually enter credit card info, like a phishing attack smorgasbord.

It’s the one thing I miss from a gas car: just let me fill up.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#238

Post by solatic »

why_at wrote: post #224
akouri wrote: post #195

I am the founder of Starlight Charging[1]. We are working on crazy-low-cost L2 chargers for multifamily apartments. Plug-and-charge is a sine-qua-non for us. One still major unsolved problem is the lack of agreement on a standard for payment/powerline communication from the EVSE to the vehicle. OCPP 2.0.1 and ISO 15118 is supposed to bring "Plug and Charge" capabilities -- this, in theory, would allow drivers to simp…

Can you explain why you feel plug-and-charge is so important? I have used chargers with and without it and while it is slightly more convenient to just plug in and go, it doesn't feel like such a huge improvement that I absolutely need it. I agree that having a different app for every brand of charging station would be annoying, but what about just accepting a credit card the way we do with gas stations now?

Recharging electric vehicles is not like refilling gas-powered cars. You will intentionally drive a gas vehicle down to 20%, even 10% tank left before going out of your way to a gas station, maybe once a week on average. But with electric cars, you should intentionally be plugging in to recharge as frequently as possible, at least once a day, as you are penalized (with longer recharge times) the longer you go between recharges.

Imagine needing to negotiate a credit card with your wall outlet before recharging your phone every night, and you'll get an idea why people would hate needing to pull out their credit card for every EV charge.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#239

Post by enragedcacti »

why_at wrote: post #224
akouri wrote: post #195

I am the founder of Starlight Charging[1]. We are working on crazy-low-cost L2 chargers for multifamily apartments. Plug-and-charge is a sine-qua-non for us. One still major unsolved problem is the lack of agreement on a standard for payment/powerline communication from the EVSE to the vehicle. OCPP 2.0.1 and ISO 15118 is supposed to bring "Plug and Charge" capabilities -- this, in theory, would allow drivers to simp…

Can you explain why you feel plug-and-charge is so important? I have used chargers with and without it and while it is slightly more convenient to just plug in and go, it doesn't feel like such a huge improvement that I absolutely need it. I agree that having a different app for every brand of charging station would be annoying, but what about just accepting a credit card the way we do with gas stations now?

For apartments I think it makes a lot of sense. Having to do a couple transactions every road trip is one thing, but having to complete a transaction just to top off every night the way a homeowner would sounds really annoying.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#240

Post by _ea1k »

why_at wrote: post #224
akouri wrote: post #195

I am the founder of Starlight Charging[1]. We are working on crazy-low-cost L2 chargers for multifamily apartments. Plug-and-charge is a sine-qua-non for us. One still major unsolved problem is the lack of agreement on a standard for payment/powerline communication from the EVSE to the vehicle. OCPP 2.0.1 and ISO 15118 is supposed to bring "Plug and Charge" capabilities -- this, in theory, would allow drivers to simp…

Can you explain why you feel plug-and-charge is so important? I have used chargers with and without it and while it is slightly more convenient to just plug in and go, it doesn't feel like such a huge improvement that I absolutely need it. I agree that having a different app for every brand of charging station would be annoying, but what about just accepting a credit card the way we do with gas stations now?

With an L2 at an apartment, you might be plugging in daily. It'd be nice to keep the steps as minimal as possible.

Having said that, something like an NFC card + QR code support would be good enough, IMO. The main thing would be to keep the app as simple and fast as possible.

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