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Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

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Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#161

Post by chrisjc »

mupuff1234 wrote: post #64
InTheArena wrote: post #57

I think people are missing the big story here. This is Tesla winning the charging network battle (it wasn't close before this). Any EV car (which will eventually be all cars) will immediately be available for Tesla's supercharger network. This gives Tesla a massive revenue stream and scale to grow that network even bigger. Anyone who wants their superchargers has to also support all Teslas.

But it also takes away Tesla's biggest advantage, no? The charging network was a big reason to buy a tesla and now that's gone. So perhaps they will actually end up losing more revenue than gaining.

Not necessarily. Using the plug doesn't imply that you have to use Tesla's charging network, even while still using Tesla's charging hardware.

Tesla is already working on deals to sell their super/ultra-fast chargers to others like EG Group and BP. Expect the number of those deals to grow.

I would argue that this will benefit those with with Teslas. As Tesla scales up to meet the demand for their charging hardware, the cost should drop while availability increases.

Moreover, as the number of independent networks that use Tesla's charging hardware grows, there will be additional pressure/leverage/lobbying on the government, electric companies, etc to provide the behind-the-scenes infrastructure that theses charging locations require. Tesla has on numerous occasions asserted that this is one of the most difficult parts of growing their charging network in places that have the greatest demand.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/uk-pet...

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/bp-boosts-ev-chargi...

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#162

Post by alephnerd »

aik wrote: post #127
phkahler wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah. The real win here is for the public. The "standard" charging plug and cables weigh a LOT, so much that my elderly mother probably couldn't use one. The "standard" also mandates the use of PowerLine Communication chips even though the signal is not over the high power conductor. We are all better off just biting the bullet now and changing everything over to the Tesla plug.

Agreed. Thank you Tesla for helping bring about a better standard here!

Better maintained than the horror show that is Electrify America as well

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#163

Post by Rebelgecko »

apexalpha wrote: post #135

I understand the ridicule that the EU gets sometimes, and especially so when trying to regulate stuff like AI where it seems the EU wants to regulate more than to create start ups etc... But this is one thing the EU just nailed the hammer into the wood immediatly, and rightly so. I can't even remember the time it was. Maybe 2013? 2014? They just set a standard and everyone, even Tesla, adopted it. Every single EV can…

Eh, I think if NA had forced a standard quickly (which the US has actually sort of done with the infrastructure bill), it would've been CCS which has a lot of downsides

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#164

Post by SEJeff »

CaptainOfCoit wrote: post #52
SEJeff wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* in north america, which also includes Canada.

Don't forget the neighbor in the south North America too, Mexico.

You’re absolutely right. Thankyou.

I guess in my head I grouped Latin America with South America which wasn’t correct.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#165

Post by stetrain »

phkahler wrote: post #123
InTheArena wrote: post #57

I think people are missing the big story here. This is Tesla winning the charging network battle (it wasn't close before this). Any EV car (which will eventually be all cars) will immediately be available for Tesla's supercharger network. This gives Tesla a massive revenue stream and scale to grow that network even bigger. Anyone who wants their superchargers has to also support all Teslas.

Nah. The real win here is for the public. The "standard" charging plug and cables weigh a LOT, so much that my elderly mother probably couldn't use one. The "standard" also mandates the use of PowerLine Communication chips even though the signal is not over the high power conductor. We are all better off just biting the bullet now and changing everything over to the Tesla plug.

NACS / J3400 still uses CCS communications, just over Tesla's connector.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#166

Post by ggreer »

bwat49 wrote: post #119
mupuff1234 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it also takes away Tesla's biggest advantage, no? The charging network was a big reason to buy a tesla and now that's gone. So perhaps they will actually end up losing more revenue than gaining.

Fragmented infrastructure benefits no one. Imagine if you could only fill up your ICE vehicle at shell stations because of your vehicle's brand. Fragmentation of the charging infrastructure puts a hard limit on EV adoption, they will never replace ICE vehicles unless the infrastructure becomes as ubiquitous as gas stations.

It's hard to make direct analogies because unlike gas vehicles, EVs "refuel" at home. You wake up every day with a full tank of gas. Fast DC chargers are mostly for road trips.

And while it's a good thing that everyone has adopted the same charging standard, branding is just as important. Gas at gas stations is fungible. EV chargers are most certainly not. Right now Tesla's charging network is the only option that is fast and reliable.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#167

Post by newsclues »

phkahler wrote: post #140
adrianN wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would expect that in the near future EVs become commodities based on a small handful of licensed platforms. Owning the charging network is a nice hedge against losing the battle to become one of the platforms.

>> Owning the charging network is a nice hedge against losing the battle to become one of the platforms. Charging networks are IMHO not a viable long term business model. Building out a "platform" to sell commodity electrons is utterly stupid. Nobody wants the stupid app, they want to charge at McDonalds along the highway while they grab something to eat.

Infrastructure (to provide fuel or energy for transportation) is a long term business model.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#168

Post by SEJeff »

clouddrover wrote: post #41
SEJeff wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a shame North America still has years of plug incompatibilities and adapter fiddling Not really, Tesla has over 24k charging stalls in the US. The second biggest is Electrify America, and they have only 3,800 charging stalls. There really aren't a lot of EV chargers that are non-tesla in the US, unlike the EU.

There are 7,869 locations and 15,661 CCS ports in the US and Canada (versus 2,297 locations and 25,247 Tesla ports): https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html It's plugs on chargers and inlets on cars. It'll be a slow and tedious process.

I didn’t include the crappy L2 destination chargers, of which there are a whole lot more of that support teslas.

I was referring to the L3 superchargers / fast chargers or equivalent. The majority of the ones you linked are L2 chargers are are not that useful outside of destination charging.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#169

Post by stetrain »

conjecTech wrote: post #159
InTheArena wrote: post #57

I think people are missing the big story here. This is Tesla winning the charging network battle (it wasn't close before this). Any EV car (which will eventually be all cars) will immediately be available for Tesla's supercharger network. This gives Tesla a massive revenue stream and scale to grow that network even bigger. Anyone who wants their superchargers has to also support all Teslas.

People also made the argument that the exclusivity of the Tesla supercharger network was a positive for Tesla. It's hard for both to be true. I think the reality is that uncertainty about charging away from home pushed a lot of people towards Tesla who might otherwise have considered a different make/model. With that gone, a moat vanished. That being said, competition in the US EV market is still weak. Maybe the adde…

I think the difference is that over time Tesla has streamlined mass production, installation, and reliable operation of their chargers.

They are averaging 1.5 charging stations installed per day over the last year in North America. Each of those stations has at least 8 chargers, some of them have 24, 40, or more.

They have moved to pre-fab construction where a row of 8 chargers are all installed in a concrete slab that can be dropped into a site and commissioned in a very short time period.

Basically nobody else is keeping up with them at charger deployment in the US and that creates a market opportunity for Tesla and a need to make some return on all of that construction by increasing utilization rates.

Re: Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi say they will use Tesla's EV charging plug

#170

Post by arghwhat »

phkahler wrote: post #123
InTheArena wrote: post #57

I think people are missing the big story here. This is Tesla winning the charging network battle (it wasn't close before this). Any EV car (which will eventually be all cars) will immediately be available for Tesla's supercharger network. This gives Tesla a massive revenue stream and scale to grow that network even bigger. Anyone who wants their superchargers has to also support all Teslas.

Nah. The real win here is for the public. The "standard" charging plug and cables weigh a LOT, so much that my elderly mother probably couldn't use one. The "standard" also mandates the use of PowerLine Communication chips even though the signal is not over the high power conductor. We are all better off just biting the bullet now and changing everything over to the Tesla plug.

Cable weight corresponds to charging power rating and choice of materials, not plug choice.

A combined CCS2 plug is chunkier and might be a bit heavier, but not compared to, say, using a fuel pump.

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