Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

blobstreaming.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

371–380 of 593 posts

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#371

Post by pseudalopex »

overflyer wrote: post #50
rzz3 wrote: post #7

But, why offices at all? All my productivity problems are solved by just working from home.

Have you guys ever thought about the fact that there are nerds that like so socialize and hate working from home, because it gets f'ing lonely after a while? I want to see people. The corona pandamic where I worked almost 2 years from home drove me into a severe depression.

Have you ever thought about the fact many people like to work from home because it leaves more time to socialize with family and friends?

Pandemic restrictions have ended. You could eat lunch with a neighbor who hates working from home also. Or rent shared working space.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#372

Post by wildzzz »

esskay wrote: post #106

It has to be said, if you're employing programmers and making them sit in an openplan office you're willingly and knowingly making their job significantly harder, and their day worse. Open plan might work great for some types of work, but for highly technical and mentally taxing work it's quite litterally the worst possible working environment you could be providing. There's a reason that many programmers prefer to w…

If you can't give me my own office with a door, at minimum I want a cube with 6ft walls that have excellent noise dampening (I don't want to be able to clearly hear a normal conversation next door), a large enough work space such that I can stand up and walk over to my own whiteboard, a pair of ultra comfortable noise cancelling headphones, and being able to have some natural daylight coming into the space (but not necessarily direct line of sight to a window from my chair).

I'm fully aware that commercial real estate is expensive and that old office floorplans are not entirely conducive to offering everyone an office with a door. There are certainly compromises that need to be made when renovating the office to give people what they want without simply moving to a brand new building. While I'd prefer my own office, just having a noise-proof cube where I don't have to stare at everyone walking past would be a huge step up from the picnic table style desks where it feels like you're sitting at a library computer desk. There are plenty of ways to track productivity that don't involve a manager being able to stare at everyone working like a sweatshop foreman.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#373

Post by tamimio »

Open office layouts might work for some jobs like sales or similar, but I always argued that even the desk placement has an impact. For example, I personally prefer to have a wall behind me instead of others walking or standing or chatting behind me. It’s just a big distraction, plus the usual interruptions that you get because you are sitting next to them. Additionally, if you are sensitive to noises and sounds like me, it’s even worse. In one of my jobs, it was like that and - since it was in engineering - the workshop was next to the office and you can imagine all kinds of noises. The worst part is I tried to explain that this environment is the worst for anything beyond just filling forms or doing presentations, but they never changed anything and even remote work was discouraged. I had to leave that eventually

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#374

Post by [deleted] »

IKantRead wrote: post #316
esskay wrote: post #106

It has to be said, if you're employing programmers and making them sit in an openplan office you're willingly and knowingly making their job significantly harder, and their day worse. Open plan might work great for some types of work, but for highly technical and mentally taxing work it's quite litterally the worst possible working environment you could be providing. There's a reason that many programmers prefer to w…

Recent experience at a fairly young startup has shown me that open office culture has also started to breed a very different type of programmer. People will often be pairing nearly all day long, any claim that you need a moment to focus and think about a problem is met with perplexity, every idea should be shipped to prod asap, while tests exist the idea of performing basic QA/manual testing on your own work is only…

[deleted]

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#376

Post by JohnFen »

i_am_a_peasant wrote: post #358
JohnFen wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can be known for always being there, at your job, doing what you're paid to do, and still work remote. Just be there, at your job, doing what you're paid to do.

Fair enough. But I just can't replace real human interaction with remote communication. I just can't. Same way I could never get in a long distance relationship with someone. I need to be in the same room as them and look them in the eye when I'm explaining something to them. I actually like the 2-5 minutes of chit chat in the common kitchen every morning, talking about where my colleague went skiing that weekend. An…

> But I just can't replace real human interaction with remote communication. I just can't.

That's entirely fair. You work best in a particular sort of arrangement, just as others work best in other sorts of arrangements. Nobody is wrong here.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#377

Post by paulcole »

esskay wrote: post #106

It has to be said, if you're employing programmers and making them sit in an openplan office you're willingly and knowingly making their job significantly harder, and their day worse. Open plan might work great for some types of work, but for highly technical and mentally taxing work it's quite litterally the worst possible working environment you could be providing. There's a reason that many programmers prefer to w…

> if you're employing programmers and making them sit in an openplan office you're willingly and knowingly making their job significantly harder, and their day worse.

I think it’s more fair to say that they’re making some of their jobs significantly harder and improving the experience for others. Plenty of jobs aren’t interested in optimizing for anyone’s personal productivity and happiness — they’re optimizing for their business goals.

> There's a reason that many programmers prefer to work from home

I think there’s many reasons this seems to be true (I say seems because the ones who prefer it are very vocal about it and tend to (at best) shout down those who disagree) and maximizing productivity is probably one of those reasons that they’re willing to tell their employers.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#378

Post by dpkirchner »

definitelyauser wrote: post #232
gorgoiler wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open plan worked for me when there was a very clear contract between every stakeholder. Firstly, everyone had free, good quality, sound blocking headphones. Not just free as in standard equipment on your first day free. There were buckets of the things lying around and if you needed a new set you just grabbed some, no questions asked. VC funded opulence, yay! Secondly, there was an understanding amongst everyone on t…

I've often run into the "just wear headphones" argument and never been a fan of it. Do you code with noise cancellation in a sort of sensory deprivation mode? Or do you listen to music? Listening to music while coding severely reduces my concentration, and I find it in no way to be a substitute for silence.

I will never actually experience silence, due in part to listening to loud music way too often as a kid. Music or other low-interaction media is better than the constant high-pitch tone I hear ~16x7.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#379

Post by that_guy_iain »

ath3nd wrote: post #37

People like you are the reason I personally don't want to be in an office. > asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. Basically like having a toddler around. Sorry for the negative take here but how it's written it feels like you don't necessarily realize that some people do need deep work, and prioritize your quick satisfaction to other's focus. Or I migh…

> Sorry for the negative take here but how it's written it feels like you don't necessarily realize that some people do need deep work, and prioritize your quick satisfaction to other's focus.

I'm always confused by people who struggle so much with being able to quickly answer a question and get back to what they were doing.

Also, here you're prioritising your work over someone else's.

> I simply can't stand incessantly being asked questions, I view it as a type of interruption

Well, you are being interrupted. But you're being paid to be interrupted.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#380

Post by tzs »

cauch wrote: post #63
Terr_ wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the same vein, an office with a door won't help at all if you have higher-ups who expects instant responses to any messaging/e-mail query every five minutes.

Well, if you don't answer instantly, then you are stopping them in their flow. I've noticed this some times ago and now I cannot unsee it: this all discussion is too often about "what is best for me and my flow even if it ruins other people's flow" rather than discussing a proper solution.

I'm not sure you are talking about the same thing when you say "flow" that I think most of the other people are talking about when they say "flow".

Flow as most are using it here, also known as being "in the zone", is when you achieve a deep state of focus on one particular task, and everything else seems to melt away. You reach maximal energy and enthusiasm for the work. It is where you reach peak productivity and creativity.

Most people cannot just enter this state at will, and when they do achieve it cannot maintain it for more than an hour or two. Getting into this state takes 20 to 30 minutes or more.

When you are in this state it takes very little to knock you out of it. A ringing phone, someone talking to you even if you just tell them to come back in a couple hours, a beep from a messaging app...all of those can knock you out of the zone.

Getting back in after being knocked out takes another 20 to 30 minutes. This means that if you are getting one interruption or distraction every 30 minutes throughout your time at your desk it is unlikely that you will get any time in the zone.

>> In the same vein, an office with a door won't help at all if you have higher-ups who expects instant responses to any messaging/e-mail query every five minutes

> Well, if you don't answer instantly, then you are stopping them in their flow

In the case of a manager interrupting you they probably weren't in the zone. But even if it is someone who was in the zone that is interrupting you them having to stop and message you was probably enough to knock them out of it.

It will almost certainly be more productive for the organization overall for them to work on something else until you naturally exit the zone.

Post reply on HN