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Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

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Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#351

Post by JohnFen »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #235
otteromkram wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but terrible for collaborative whiteboard design work. Not at all. If you think so, maybe try switching jobs to non-remote and let someone fine with virtual whiteboarding take your role on.

Not sure why this is down voted. A decent virtual whiteboard can be better than physical. No more chicken-scratch text labels, plenty of pre-drawn widgets to drop in, easily shuffle things around, sticky arrows, everyone can have a different color pointer, etc. The learning curve is a bit higher than physical, yet worth the pain. Also, no judgement about attire, eye contact, stance, or demands to stay during a fire a…

> A decent virtual whiteboard can be better than physical.

Interesting. I honestly assumed that virtual whiteboarding was universally considered worse than physical whiteboarding, purely because it is amongst everyone I've worked with.

It's interesting to learn otherwise.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#352

Post by wing-_-nuts »

em-bee wrote: post #283
otteromkram wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have tiny cubes for worker bees [...] Not sure if you're on the same page as this conversation. Open offices don't really have cubicles.

cubes have all the disadvantages of open plan offices and none of the advantages of private rooms. i prefer open-plan offices over cubes.

Having worked in both environments, cubicles are quieter. They also have much less visual distraction.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#353

Post by closeparen »

sokoloff wrote: post #136
ath3nd wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who would win: - literally 100s of publications showing how disruptive and destructive to focus it is to be working in an open office work and how much distractions it brings: https://theconversation.com/returning-to-the-workplace-heres... https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-truth-about-open-offices https://www.businessdit.com/distraction-work-statistics/ https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/minds-business/eve... https:…

Who wins? The CFO and corp real estate people (correctly) saying how much more expensive (and less flexible to changing team size) a building with enough private offices is.

It's not unusual if it takes 20 years for a software developer in the Bay Area to produce output equal in value to a 2-bedroom condo. Skimping on office space is not some kind of miserly bean-counting. Software development is just not all that valuable compared to Tier 1 urban real estate.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#354

Post by em-bee »

mariusor wrote: post #323
em-bee wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

camaraderie in a team is a job requirement for me. without it i'll be out of there in no time. i simply do not want to work with people who can't be bothered to be nice and helpful to each other. i do not want to be just a cog in a machine that grinds out work without any consideration for the project as a whole. it is also needed to allow new team members to get onboarded faster. as a hiring manager i find your atti…

That's perfectly fine. I think the world is large enough so we can coexist in peace. Also I don't dismiss camaraderie that appears spontaneously between coworkers, I was complaining about the company enforced fake camaraderie that gets pushed down everyone's throats with trite team building exercises, company parties, team goals and other methods of hammering people into conformity. > it is also needed to allow new t…

i agree with the forced stuff. but i expect a level of interaction to be naturally there so that enforced camaraderie is not even needed.

it's fine to have team members absorb domain knowledge through interactions with their peers, but if that's the only way to on-board them, I most definitely don't want to work for you

ok, you lost me here. what other way is there? it's not possible to assess all the knowledge a new hire has. if i have to hire a trainer to get them up to speed it will just cost more money and they will not learn the company specific domain knowledge.

in my experience specifically onboarding can only be done by others on the same team. it's a teams responsibility.

for more thoughts on this topic, see the discussion here: https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/1190...

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#355

Post by 4star3star »

ath3nd wrote: post #115
esskay wrote: post #106

It has to be said, if you're employing programmers and making them sit in an openplan office you're willingly and knowingly making their job significantly harder, and their day worse. Open plan might work great for some types of work, but for highly technical and mentally taxing work it's quite litterally the worst possible working environment you could be providing. There's a reason that many programmers prefer to w…

Who would win: - literally 100s of publications showing how disruptive and destructive to focus it is to be working in an open office work and how much distractions it brings: https://theconversation.com/returning-to-the-workplace-heres... https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-truth-about-open-offices https://www.businessdit.com/distraction-work-statistics/ https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/minds-business/eve... https:…

I have an office with a nice, heavy door. I don't often close it, but just knowing that it's there and that I can close if I want to is a comforting thought. That said, I think if I did always close it, I'd be more productive by a significant margin....

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#356

Post by JohnFen »

cjaybo wrote: post #246
otteromkram wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but terrible for collaborative whiteboard design work. Not at all. If you think so, maybe try switching jobs to non-remote and let someone fine with virtual whiteboarding take your role on.

> Not at all The arrogance required to tell someone that their experience is false is something I have trouble wrapping my head around.

It's human nature to think that our personal experience and worldview is representative of the general population, even though it almost never actually is. It's a thing we have to consciously be on guard about.

"We tend to mistake the limits of our vision for the limits of the world."

If you allow the misperception to take hold, it's a short step to concluding that anyone who isn't like you is weird or wrong in some way.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#358

Post by i_am_a_peasant »

JohnFen wrote: post #347
i_am_a_peasant wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My new year resolution is to never do remote work at my next job. I wanna be that guy known for being always there , at his job , doing what he's paid to do.

You can be known for always being there, at your job, doing what you're paid to do, and still work remote. Just be there, at your job, doing what you're paid to do.

Fair enough. But I just can't replace real human interaction with remote communication. I just can't. Same way I could never get in a long distance relationship with someone. I need to be in the same room as them and look them in the eye when I'm explaining something to them. I actually like the 2-5 minutes of chit chat in the common kitchen every morning, talking about where my colleague went skiing that weekend.

And I am an introvert.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#359

Post by JohnFen »

gorgoiler wrote: post #163
esskay wrote: post #106

It has to be said, if you're employing programmers and making them sit in an openplan office you're willingly and knowingly making their job significantly harder, and their day worse. Open plan might work great for some types of work, but for highly technical and mentally taxing work it's quite litterally the worst possible working environment you could be providing. There's a reason that many programmers prefer to w…

Open plan worked for me when there was a very clear contract between every stakeholder. Firstly, everyone had free, good quality, sound blocking headphones. Not just free as in standard equipment on your first day free. There were buckets of the things lying around and if you needed a new set you just grabbed some, no questions asked. VC funded opulence, yay! Secondly, there was an understanding amongst everyone on t…

I worked in an open office plan that did the headphones thing. I found that made it even more intolerable -- I can't stand being in a room with a bunch of people and being cut off from my senses. It makes me hyperaware, nervous, and even less able to work.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#360

Post by JAlexoid »

gregoriol wrote: post #138
throw0101c wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Open plan might work great for some types of work […] I'm curious to know: why types are, or people consider to be, good for open plan? Generally, office type jobs tends to be one where people need to use their brains to concentrate on something, and open plans tend to be able to create / not block distractions, they would be antithetical to being able to concentrate.

Mostly everything that is not creative: creativity needs focus. Take any job that isn't creating something, anything related to customer, operations, support, ... and one can do it in almost any conditions.

Creativity doesn't require solitude. Is pair programming not at all creative?
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