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Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

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Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#311

Post by red-iron-pine »

throw0101c wrote: post #119
esskay wrote: post #106

It has to be said, if you're employing programmers and making them sit in an openplan office you're willingly and knowingly making their job significantly harder, and their day worse. Open plan might work great for some types of work, but for highly technical and mentally taxing work it's quite litterally the worst possible working environment you could be providing. There's a reason that many programmers prefer to w…

> Open plan might work great for some types of work […] I'm curious to know: why types are, or people consider to be, good for open plan? Generally, office type jobs tends to be one where people need to use their brains to concentrate on something, and open plans tend to be able to create / not block distractions, they would be antithetical to being able to concentrate.

Sales and marketing bullpens. Some IT roles (NOC / SOC).

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#312

Post by bitzun »

d3w4s9 wrote: post #291
definitelyauser wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've often run into the "just wear headphones" argument and never been a fan of it. Do you code with noise cancellation in a sort of sensory deprivation mode? Or do you listen to music? Listening to music while coding severely reduces my concentration, and I find it in no way to be a substitute for silence.

Sorry that's just you. As an amateur musician myself, music helps me concentrate. Actually, if I have been writing code for a while without music, I would notice that "something is missing" and turn on my music. I know a number of colleagues who use their headphones all the time as well.

"that's just you" is dismissive and inaccurate. I can only listen to music when I'm slacking and if I begin to do real work the music I normally enjoy becomes an annoyance and I have to turn it off.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#313

Post by xyzzy_plugh »

danaris wrote: post #256
otteromkram wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have tiny cubes for worker bees [...] Not sure if you're on the same page as this conversation. Open offices don't really have cubicles.

Cube farms aren't really much better for programming work than true open-plan offices. The article is about the split between "office with door" and "not that", not specifically open-plan offices, so talking about cube farms is absolutely valid.

What on earth are you talking about. No one is debating true offices are superior but a full height cube is about infinitely better than open office. Cubes are sound insulating, they're quiet, they're more spacious than open office. You have storage and three to three and a half walls. The only physical distraction is caused by people walking past the opening. It's not just possible, but quite likely to eliminate outside movement from your field of view.

I'll admit that plenty of cube farms are really just open offices in lipstick but true cube farms are far superior to open offices.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#314

Post by red-iron-pine »

pseudalopex wrote: post #247
dragonelite wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cancelling sound distractions with NC headsets isn't that bad. Cubicles will most likely help with visual distraction i have in an open floor plan.

I never saw headphones mask voice adequately without playing music or other sound. Or wearable all day without discomfort.

same. you're basically getting earplugs at that point, or keeping something on in the background as a low drone

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#315

Post by talkingtab »

My analogy for some kinds of programming is mental juggling. Good programmers, juggle lots of balls at one time: the problem components, constraints, other problem elements, production issues, reliability issues, all the possible solutions.

A programmer starts with a couple of these, gets them in the air, then adds more and more concepts. When I am good I can juggle lots of them and see how they interoperate.

Once all the balls in the air, whirling around like some sort of planetary system orbiting a sun, they can coalesce into -- an idea, a solution, or something.

If this gets disturbed, all those balls come tumbling down. This is not a 30 second thing, this can be an hours thing. Or more.

Non programmers do not understand this process. I believe.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#316

Post by IKantRead »

esskay wrote: post #106

It has to be said, if you're employing programmers and making them sit in an openplan office you're willingly and knowingly making their job significantly harder, and their day worse. Open plan might work great for some types of work, but for highly technical and mentally taxing work it's quite litterally the worst possible working environment you could be providing. There's a reason that many programmers prefer to w…

Recent experience at a fairly young startup has shown me that open office culture has also started to breed a very different type of programmer.

People will often be pairing nearly all day long, any claim that you need a moment to focus and think about a problem is met with perplexity, every idea should be shipped to prod asap, while tests exist the idea of performing basic QA/manual testing on your own work is only used in the most extreme cases.

Contemporary startup engineering culture is best described as frenetic. It certainly feels hyper productive (if not extremely exhausting for a more traditional, introverted programmer), but I've started to notice a fairly large amount of that "productivity" is fixing mistakes a more focused programmer would have avoided.

I suspect the long-term impact of open offices my be even more deleterious than it's impact on the focus of individual programmers.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#317

Post by xyzzy_plugh »

silverlake wrote: post #260
eadmund wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, there is nothing like being in a room with a team. There is something about the physicality of presence, the way the communication has both lower latency (because it is not intermediated by electronics) and higher bandwidth (because in person even things like the way someone shifts in his shoes or his eyelid quivers is information). I have worked remotely for a significant portion of the past few de…

I agree communication is better when everyone is present. If a remote team was required to be available that would solve most of the problems. It’s about the culture of WFH which currently assumes slow async responses.

That's a cultural thing. All my remote colleagues are present and responsive. I certainly do not think it's a healthy assumption.

WFH does not imply async.

Timezones do.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#318

Post by bitzun »

robertlagrant wrote: post #131
ath3nd wrote: post #37

People like you are the reason I personally don't want to be in an office. > asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. Basically like having a toddler around. Sorry for the negative take here but how it's written it feels like you don't necessarily realize that some people do need deep work, and prioritize your quick satisfaction to other's focus. Or I migh…

> it feels like you don't necessarily realize that some people do need deep work, and prioritize your quick satisfaction to other's focus. This is very one-sided. If you can unblock someone now so they don't spend 3 hours searching through the local intranet for some information, then that makes your team faster. There's a balance to be had, of course, but your team's overall delivery is what's important. > I view it…

But it's not a dichotomy between 3 hours or instantaneous. It's a dichotomy between instantaneous and when someone has a break in flow to peek at messages, which IME is more like 15-30 minutes (and i think it's probably fair to ask people to peek around that frequently if they normally wouldn't)

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#319

Post by em-bee »

mariusor wrote: post #263
uxp8u61q wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll be blunt here. I have very little interest in how the team I'm part of performs in general. Don't be surprised when others show the same level of empathy towards you, then. It's not about making you feel guilty, it's about making you do you effing job. Unless you're in a very junior position, your job is not to pump out code day in and day out.

I'm not sure what exactly you're reading in my words, but I don't really understand why you think it's my "effing job" to provide training for inexperienced developers. My contract stipulates no such thing, and despite what you seem to assume, I have been in fact hired to find solutions, and write code. It's a little disconcerting to see someone make such self assured inferences about me, based on a single comment.

when i hire someone, their job is to do whatever it takes that is in their capacity to move the project forward. if it takes a larger team, then getting new team members up to speed is part of that. and if that new team member is unfamiliar with the frameworks the team is using then training them on that is part of the job too.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#320

Post by Apocryphon »

cauch wrote: post #290
ath3nd wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> WE ALL HAVE THESE KIND OF PEOPLE IN OUR LIFE, you are not special enough that the human condition should not apply to you. And I (and most other people in this thread) am fed up with them and trying to actively remove them from my life. Hence, when people suggest I should deal with it, I tell them that I will most certainly not deal with it. That there are things that can be done to make their and mine life easier.…

> And I (and most other people in this thread) am fed up with them and trying to actively remove them from my life. And OP does that too, but suddenly, when OP does that, they are a toddler, but when you do it, it's fine. > There are people who put their soda cans on the ground, there are people who ... and there are people who will call "toddler" people who have just a different way of working and are not imposing n…

If the majority of people are babies about an issue, then perhaps you should start running a nursery.
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