Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How to learn chess as an adult (2021)

alexcrompton.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 320 posts

Re: How to learn chess as an adult (2021)

#31

Post by nanofortnight »

huytersd wrote: post #23
DeathArrow wrote: post #17

Is there a well known strategy game where AI doesn't have better chances to win than a human? Is there possibly, math wise, that such games exist? I kind of dislike not having a chance when playing against bots.

I would say any game that includes a lot of uncertainty, subjectivity and random chance would mean that an AI would not usually have an edge over a human. Maybe games like diplomacy, magic the gathering, pandemic, Gloomhaven, maybe poker (?), backgammon (?) etc. On a sidenote, I think it’s interesting that we’re a point where it’s starting to get hard to come up with games that humans can beat AI at.

Computers are better than humans at poker (DeepStack) and backgammon (eXtreme Gammon). XG for example is commonly used by expert backgammon players to analyse play, much like how engines are used in chess.

There is no reason why computers wouldn't eventually beat a human in the others, if someone writes a narrow AI for them. Consider for example, AlphaStar for StarCraft.

Re: How to learn chess as an adult (2021)

#32

Post by DeathArrow »

huytersd wrote: post #23
DeathArrow wrote: post #17

Is there a well known strategy game where AI doesn't have better chances to win than a human? Is there possibly, math wise, that such games exist? I kind of dislike not having a chance when playing against bots.

I would say any game that includes a lot of uncertainty, subjectivity and random chance would mean that an AI would not usually have an edge over a human. Maybe games like diplomacy, magic the gathering, pandemic, Gloomhaven, maybe poker (?), backgammon (?) etc. On a sidenote, I think it’s interesting that we’re a point where it’s starting to get hard to come up with games that humans can beat AI at.

>I would say any game that includes a lot of uncertainty, subjectivity and random chance

I would thought the same haven't I been reading articles on how bots won against humans at poker.

I am not sure about something like backgammon or monopoly.

Re: How to learn chess as an adult (2021)

#33

Post by yreg »

huytersd wrote: post #26
kdwikzncba wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to hear your reasoning as to why you think that a human is especially good at dealing with uncertainty. My experience is the opposite.

I’m not saying a human would be better than an AI. Just saying it would be a more equal playing field, since neither would have a significant advantage.

I think this depends on whether the human has a chance in a particular run (yes) or on average of many runs (probably no because the AI will calculate the probabilities better).

But in the extreme case of a random game (like rolling the highest number on a die) they are equal (obviously).

Re: How to learn chess as an adult (2021)

#34

Post by kqr »

washmyelbows wrote: post #18

"Only about 10% of players ever gain more than 100 points, and only about 1% of players gain more than 200 rating points given years." This seems like a wild claim. On chess.com I've gone from 500 to ~1050 in a handful of months without any real study, just some light YouTube watching. 500->800 felt like all it took was learning a few openings and not blundering pieces. 800-1050 felt like it came mostly from getting…

The author says specifically blitz/bullet is suboptimal for learning, for precisely the reasons you mention. The author plays these types of games to kill boredom.

Re: How to learn chess as an adult (2021)

#35

Post by netfortius »

kdwikzncba wrote: post #24
huytersd wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say any game that includes a lot of uncertainty, subjectivity and random chance would mean that an AI would not usually have an edge over a human. Maybe games like diplomacy, magic the gathering, pandemic, Gloomhaven, maybe poker (?), backgammon (?) etc. On a sidenote, I think it’s interesting that we’re a point where it’s starting to get hard to come up with games that humans can beat AI at.

I would like to hear your reasoning as to why you think that a human is especially good at dealing with uncertainty. My experience is the opposite.

True randomness doesn't drive better results for humans, due to some intrinsic humane qualities, but rather eliminates the advantage of large volume data access and processing of AI. Basically true randomness levels the playing field. Backgammon is a perfect example.

Re: How to learn chess as an adult (2021)

#36

Post by vasco »

washmyelbows wrote: post #18

"Only about 10% of players ever gain more than 100 points, and only about 1% of players gain more than 200 rating points given years." This seems like a wild claim. On chess.com I've gone from 500 to ~1050 in a handful of months without any real study, just some light YouTube watching. 500->800 felt like all it took was learning a few openings and not blundering pieces. 800-1050 felt like it came mostly from getting…

I love quick games, 3min blitz being my favorite and I suck at chess. It makes it almost a different game to me. I stopped playing for years because my memory of chess was slow boring waiting. Blitz is just full on, all the time.

Re: How to learn chess as an adult (2021)

#37

Post by zeusk »

yreg wrote: post #21
DeathArrow wrote: post #17

Is there a well known strategy game where AI doesn't have better chances to win than a human? Is there possibly, math wise, that such games exist? I kind of dislike not having a chance when playing against bots.

Civilization V? Warcraft 3? But any answer will be such only because no one tried hard enough to make a supreme AI.

OpenAI's dota2 bots were pretty impressive, they even had an open public lobby for people to play against.

Re: How to learn chess as an adult (2021)

#38

Post by chongli »

washmyelbows wrote: post #18

"Only about 10% of players ever gain more than 100 points, and only about 1% of players gain more than 200 rating points given years." This seems like a wild claim. On chess.com I've gone from 500 to ~1050 in a handful of months without any real study, just some light YouTube watching. 500->800 felt like all it took was learning a few openings and not blundering pieces. 800-1050 felt like it came mostly from getting…

If you follow the link to the data analysis [1] you’ll see that the argument is based on higher rated players. Low rated players have much higher variance in their rating and can improve by quite a lot, just by learning to stop blundering. That’s basically the situation you’re in.

Getting to 2000 rating is going to be quite a mountain to climb for you, unless you’re very young.

[1] https://github.com/jcw024/lichess_database_ETL/blob/main/REA...

Re: How to learn chess as an adult (2021)

#39

Post by deadbeeves »

pavlov wrote: post #27
DeathArrow wrote: post #17

Is there a well known strategy game where AI doesn't have better chances to win than a human? Is there possibly, math wise, that such games exist? I kind of dislike not having a chance when playing against bots.

> "I kind of dislike not having a chance when playing against bots." Conjures an image of the astronaut with a gun meme... - Wait, playing games to win is a waste of time now? - It always was.

There's a difference between playing to win and being frustrated because your opponent can consistently steamroll you effortlessly without even giving you a chance to set your game up.
Post reply on HN