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The "Cheap" Web

potato.cheap

161–170 of 230 posts

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#161

The article pulls together a lot of lovely material and links and ideas, but it starts with such a toxic & conservative outlook. Sure, apple.com's source might not be as beautiful as their products but potato.cheap immediately turns around and says it's not apples fault, and trashes the web and says it needs sto be replaces by something else. It just seems to be like the industrial world isn't going to improve withou…

[deleted]

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only languages browsers should understand are markup languages, scripting and programming: no, none of that. Documents, not programs.

Why?

Not OP, but the number of "documents" on the web that "require" programming/scripting that bring no value to those documents, is vast.

I'm not talking about documents/articles that have useful embedded video, or informative interactive graphs and things.

I'm talking about "documents" that require a multiple javascript libraries to load in order to inject a "

Hello, it's a nice day and I had waffles for breakfast" into a DOM.

There is no "graceful degredation" with these things anymore; it's either javascript on, or no content, which is baffling and frustrating. It's not just a "get off my lawn" thing, it has real implications on energy efficiency, bandwidth, and most of all accessibility: https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2021/01/the-unreasonable-effectiven...

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#164

Love it — I think something of value was lost when we collectively decided in 2005 that everyone’s page should look exactly the same (i.e. TheFacebook™ profiles) Sadly that, combined with the changes Google made to deprioritize results from personal sites like these, all but destroyed these neat bespoke pages.

I mean, that's because Facebook Pages are cheap. Businesses don't want to spend money on anything they don't have to, and people aren't much different. The argument for learning to write even basic HTML only to upload it even to something like Amazon S3 (free) and direct a web address to it (not free) or spend money on hosting to not have to learn how to deposit files into an S3 bucket is a LOT of time to spend to ac…

States like to control, internet state of mind is 100% liberal, and both live in a capitalist world. Internet won its freedom, but freedom did not overcome the greed from capitalism.

Good news is you can still go to mastodon, after all.

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really get this point... HTML is not _that_ complicated. I mean is: this this this really "more complex" than something like: # this ## this ### this You still need to know that '#' means header / title, and that more of them leads to a lower header level... and this is just for the most basic concept of web pages: headers. Okay, even if it's not markdown, no matter what system you cook up, the syntactic comp…

Author here! If you haven't done it before, try teaching a non-programmer how to make and deploy a website. It's easy to forget where the sharp edges are because we cut ourselves on them so frequently. I've observed that HTML/CSS/JS sets a minimum level of complexity that is a non-starter for most people. I personally believe that most webpages could be written, arranged, and styled in formats easier than markdown (w…

The vast majority of people who wrote their own websites back in the 90s were non-programmers. And the complexity of HTML/CSS/JS is oversold in a world where nine year olds are already building games on Roblox.

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#166
post #86

Love it — I think something of value was lost when we collectively decided in 2005 that everyone’s page should look exactly the same (i.e. TheFacebook™ profiles) Sadly that, combined with the changes Google made to deprioritize results from personal sites like these, all but destroyed these neat bespoke pages.

In retrospect a lot of the customization you could do on MySpace was madness by todays standard. Being able to set your own background, color, font, potentially animated, with auto-playing music of your choice was like letting the average person be a web developer.

I don't understand this sentiment. It implies that an arbitrary web developer, who has never met someone, knows better how the want to portray that person, than that person themselves.

It also feels very anti-hacker to me. A core ethos across open source software is that each user should be in charge of how their software behaves, should they choose to be. That includes the lowly "average person" who is not a web developer.

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#167
post #150
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you stop making up quotes? You do it a lot on this site, and it's both uncool and against the rules. I'm not going to engage with the other, less obvious (but still not particularly well-hidden) strawmen in your comment.

Eh? I didn't "make up" anything. Quotation marks are commonly used for all sorts of things other than exact literal text someone else said, and having a dialogue like that is one of them. I will continue to use quotations marks in this fashion, together with millions of other people on the planet, whether you like it or not, because it's a common way to use quotation marks and absolutely no one is confused this usage…

It's not listed at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html but there is a convention on HN of asking users not to use quotation marks to make it look like they're quoting someone when they're actually not.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#168
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Gemini[0] look interesting to you? [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemini_(protocol)

Gemini is like modern Gopher, but it is also very opinionated. The protocol does not support extensions and revision, it refuses HTTP, mandates TLS, etc... That's not the same as having browsers support the markdown content type.

You might disagree about where to draw the line but you can see why they drew a line in the sand. text/markdown would very quickly grow to be everything HTML is.

There's probably a pithy "every internet protocol expands until it can serve ads" lesson in there somewhere.

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#169
post #146

Has anyone proposed CommonMark over HTTP? Like, just shove markdown in a GET response with Content-Type: text/markdown And let the client decide how to render it. It'd be like Gopher, but modern.

Good luck getting the browsers to implement anything so useful. They won't even update their default stylesheets. I set up my blog with that kind of mentality - I just want to write some markdown and have the browser render it whatever way it needs to - and found a one-liner to pull in some Javascript to do that. But the kind of people who like this stuff tend to hate Javascript, so I get it from both sides.

I don't use other browsers so I can't be sure if this is widespread, but Firefox already has a "reader mode" where it cuts out ads/sidebars etc and applies its own very basic stylesheet. Markdown-over-HTTP could very easily use that preexisting frontend.

> I set up my blog with that kind of mentality - I just want to write some markdown and have the browser render it whatever way it needs to

I made my own blogging platform where I write Markdown, and it transforms the markdown into HTML before delivering it to the client. The only JS involved is highlight.js, and that's only loaded on posts where I specifically ask for it - the whole blog works normally with no JS at all. It's still missing some core features like RSS, but I'll get around to that.

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, that's because Facebook Pages are cheap. Businesses don't want to spend money on anything they don't have to, and people aren't much different. The argument for learning to write even basic HTML only to upload it even to something like Amazon S3 (free) and direct a web address to it (not free) or spend money on hosting to not have to learn how to deposit files into an S3 bucket is a LOT of time to spend to ac…

States like to control, internet state of mind is 100% liberal, and both live in a capitalist world. Internet won its freedom, but freedom did not overcome the greed from capitalism. Good news is you can still go to mastodon, after all.

> Internet won its freedom

I'm gonna need a real big citation on that. If by freedom you mean what a lot of people mean, which is that it opens potential revenue streams and markets and the oppression has it's origins in capital holders, then sure. "Freedom" in it's modern vernacular tends to mean this, hence "bringing freedom to Iraq" actually meaning "making sure Iraq's oil and other assets are open to exploitation by western corporations." By this definition the Internet has never been more "free."

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