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US Steel, once the largest corporation, agrees to sell to Nippon Steel

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Re: US Steel, once the largest corporation, agrees to sell to Nippon Steel

#141

Post by alephnerd »

graphe wrote: post #126
hristov wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that there isn't much union solidarity across countries and companies have completely different labor relations in different countries. As an example, all Japanese automakers that start factories in the US start them in anti-union states and take a very hostile anti-union stance. This is in contrast with the very pro union stance these companies take in Japan. But Japanese workers do not strike in soli…

Toyota started in California at a union plant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI saw it on asianometry.

And then they shut down and became a non-Union Tesla factory.

Re: US Steel, once the largest corporation, agrees to sell to Nippon Steel

#142

Post by hbarka »

AlbertCory wrote: post #77
nickpinkston wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe Toyota @ NUMMI actually showed that they could win over the union and get everyone bought into their lean culture, but it took time / patience. Notably, this plant was considered a failure before because the of the antagonism between labor/mgmt led to really toxic behavior. GM blamed the union labor, but Toyota ended up firing the managers and got buy in from labor because of their long-term / labor-centric…

And yet NUMMI failed. https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a5514/4350856/ Then the building became Solyndra, which also failed. GM, of course, is one of the stupidest companies on Earth, so they'd have trouble selling free beer to college football fans. If you want to blame them you won't get any argument from me.

This building (really a massive factory area in Fremont) is now Tesla.

NUMMI produced some really good cars under the Saturn brand. GM messed up in this collaboration. GM quitting Saturn is a story in itself.

Re: US Steel, once the largest corporation, agrees to sell to Nippon Steel

#143

Post by seanmcdirmid »

makeitshine wrote: post #45
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most chinese workers (and foreigners working in China) are in a union, however run by the communist party.

These are differently structured and run than unions outside of China. There's little recourse for protest and negotiation through them.

Oh I know. But it’s technically called a union, at least. They also funnel the morale budget through it for some strange reason, so the free movie tickets now come from the Union rather than just your employer as before.

Re: US Steel, once the largest corporation, agrees to sell to Nippon Steel

#145

Post by nickpinkston »

rayiner wrote: post #56
nickpinkston wrote: post #51

I'm interested in how the United Steelworkers thinks about the generally better track record of Japanese companies with labor relations vs. American management. This makes it seem like it was purely an "American First" kind of sentiment, whereas I could imagine this being better for the workers themselves. This then makes me wonder if the Steelworkers is more company union (ie their leaders are bought off / cushy wit…

Japanese companies in the US follow US labor laws, and no more. Big US companies are also subject to political pressure, which the unions can exert, more than foreign companies.

There are many ways to follow US labor law though. You can be really antagonistic, or you can try to be more collaborative.

The underperformance of labor/mgmt relations in the US vs. EU is a big problem for the US, as there are many chokepoint industries (railroads, ports, etc.) that are going to remain union controlled, and this sour relationship does the US economy / productivity no favors.

Even from a purely capitalist perspective, we have the wrong setup for the long-term economic growth - not including any of the labor benefits that unions can provide.

Re: US Steel, once the largest corporation, agrees to sell to Nippon Steel

#146

Post by FredPret »

4ggr0 wrote: post #139
xp84 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I actually agree with you personally that not everything should have to grow forever, a business that "just" delivers a consistent profit every year is considered a failure by those who expect YoY capital appreciation (at some multiple of the interest rate on a savings account), i.e. shareholders. Such businesses usually get sold to someone with a "growth" plan for them, which is usually some combo of combining…

> While I actually agree with you personally that not everything should have to grow forever nothing should have to grow forever. especially not amounts of natural resources, or basic necessities like food and beverages.

We've barely scratched the surface of the planet, literally. The deepest mines are 4km deep; mineral deposits are likely to get richer as you go deeper.

With desalination, nuclear + solar + geothermal, we can feed an essentially unlimited number of people.

There are always second-order effects to everything, including growth. But I find it interesting that we have such a huge runway ahead of us, without even considering resources and energy elsewhere in the solar system.

Re: US Steel, once the largest corporation, agrees to sell to Nippon Steel

#147

Post by serf »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #115
pjscott wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How in-house does it need to be? The actual physical facilities aren't being shut down; they're just under new ownership and management. And Nippon Steel is located in Japan, which is such a dependable ally of the US that I'm politely trying not to use the phrase "vassal state." Also in the US, we've got Steel Dynamics (producing 75% as much as US Steel), Cleveland-Cliffs (approximately tied with US Steel), and Nucor…

US Steel was a major contributor of steel for the WWII military machine. Honest question: if WW3 were to start, would we be able to appropriate Nippon-owned USS factories for wartime use?

> US Steel was a major contributor of steel for the WWII military machine. Honest question: if WW3 were to start, would we be able to appropriate Nippon-owned USS factories for wartime use?

given that the US military is in the region, yes, we'd be 'able to'.

a more interesting question would be "what lead to our ally denying war-effort when prompted in the midst of a world war?"

Re: US Steel, once the largest corporation, agrees to sell to Nippon Steel

#148

Post by zbyte64 »

alephnerd wrote: post #130
zbyte64 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We always ignore Nordic unions when ever we trash talk unions. If things were as easy as black and white then there wouldn't even be a need to debate, the productive non-union businesses would just slay and everyone would be working for them.

> ignore Nordic unions In Sweden (the largest industrial hub in Scandinavia), unions don't collectively negotiate wages with employers - they collectively set wages across an entire industry with the government and business management (think Syndicalism, which is the primary industrial philosophy in Europe compared to the US). Also, blue collar membership has declined after the 2008 Financial Crisis dealt a killing b…

UAW already went through some reforms which is arguably why they're experiencing a surge in popularity. In particular Shawn Fien was part of UAWD's 1 member, 1 vote initiative: https://uawd.org/

The characterization that they would eschew reform even when it would boost their popularity is not reflected in current events (certainly the managerial friendly unions of the past would avoid reforms)

Re: US Steel, once the largest corporation, agrees to sell to Nippon Steel

#149

Post by FredPret »

AYBABTME wrote: post #37
abtinf wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no comment on this specific case, but in general: all of those things—all government interventions that ostensibly protect an industry or company—make it more brittle, less efficient, and more likely to fail. That is precisely the point. You can’t build a successful business by ignoring reality.

At the same time some industries and their major businesses are strategically important enough to warrant government support.

Defense companies are squarely in the "national interest" bracket. I think steel should be as well, though it's more of a grey area since they also supply civilian demand for steel whereas no-one's buying an F-35 for their personal use (right?!)

Re: US Steel, once the largest corporation, agrees to sell to Nippon Steel

#150

Post by 4ggr0 »

FredPret wrote: post #146
4ggr0 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While I actually agree with you personally that not everything should have to grow forever nothing should have to grow forever. especially not amounts of natural resources, or basic necessities like food and beverages.

We've barely scratched the surface of the planet, literally. The deepest mines are 4km deep; mineral deposits are likely to get richer as you go deeper. With desalination, nuclear + solar + geothermal, we can feed an essentially unlimited number of people. There are always second-order effects to everything, including growth. But I find it interesting that we have such a huge runway ahead of us, without even consider…

well, you know. climate change is a tiny example of what can happen after you start treating resources like they're limitless.

we can use the solar system, of course, but just discarding earth because other planets are available, seems a bit wasteful.

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