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US Steel, once the largest corporation, agrees to sell to Nippon Steel

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Re: US Steel, once the largest corporation, agrees to sell to Nippon Steel

#121

Post by happytiger »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #115
pjscott wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How in-house does it need to be? The actual physical facilities aren't being shut down; they're just under new ownership and management. And Nippon Steel is located in Japan, which is such a dependable ally of the US that I'm politely trying not to use the phrase "vassal state." Also in the US, we've got Steel Dynamics (producing 75% as much as US Steel), Cleveland-Cliffs (approximately tied with US Steel), and Nucor…

US Steel was a major contributor of steel for the WWII military machine. Honest question: if WW3 were to start, would we be able to appropriate Nippon-owned USS factories for wartime use?

So, this is an interesting question and one which I watched unfold in COVID times.

The law that would specifically come into play here is called the Defense Production Act, and it’s complicated.

Here’s a great overview:

https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/what-defense-production-act

For more specifics, I would look at this overview which is excellent:

https://www.businessdefense.gov/ibr/mceip/dpai/dpat3/docs/DP...

In wartime, seizing capacity from an ally is… problematic. That’s my concern. What is technically possible isn’t necessarily diplomatically viable, and there are quite a few layers of laws here.

Re: US Steel, once the largest corporation, agrees to sell to Nippon Steel

#122

Post by missedthecue »

zbyte64 wrote: post #95
Der_Einzige wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This btw is why Japanese cars are better than American cars. It's objectively better to work in a unionized environment. Let's you be "lazier" and get away with half-asserey - great from the worker perspective but from the perspective of a prospective buyer, ideally your product is produced by people who work as hard as possible. The Japanese have a work-hard without half-assing attitude. This is why Toyota/Lexus hav…

We always ignore Nordic unions when ever we trash talk unions. If things were as easy as black and white then there wouldn't even be a need to debate, the productive non-union businesses would just slay and everyone would be working for them.

You mean... like tech companies?

Re: US Steel, once the largest corporation, agrees to sell to Nippon Steel

#124

Post by lumost »

nickpinkston wrote: post #51

I'm interested in how the United Steelworkers thinks about the generally better track record of Japanese companies with labor relations vs. American management. This makes it seem like it was purely an "American First" kind of sentiment, whereas I could imagine this being better for the workers themselves. This then makes me wonder if the Steelworkers is more company union (ie their leaders are bought off / cushy wit…

Anecdotally, US labor union relations have been strained for some time compared to international settings. Plausibly, this is in part due to the size of American labor unions compared to their international equivalents.

The Resident Advisors in my dorm were required to be members of and pay union due to the United AutoWorkers of America. The list of industries which the United Steel Workers represents is likewise ... large. When you have a union which is decoupled from the business sector it represents, then you run the severe risk that the union does not act in it's members (for that industry) interests.

The RAs in my dorm had to pay $200/mo in union dues, if you opted out of the union - you had to pay $400/mo.

Re: US Steel, once the largest corporation, agrees to sell to Nippon Steel

#125

Post by AlbertCory »

nickpinkston wrote: post #90
AlbertCory wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet NUMMI failed. https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a5514/4350856/ Then the building became Solyndra, which also failed. GM, of course, is one of the stupidest companies on Earth, so they'd have trouble selling free beer to college football fans. If you want to blame them you won't get any argument from me.

My argument is essentially that USS is a broken dinosaur like GM, and I think a NUMMI-style culture shakeup could actually work. I generally think USS/GM are kinda beyond saving, but even incremental change could be good, and I think Toyota still knows how to run a car plant better than GM.

Only a diehard GM fanboy could deny that.

Note that Toyota did not take over GM. That might have actually worked, albeit being politically unacceptable.

Re: US Steel, once the largest corporation, agrees to sell to Nippon Steel

#126

Post by graphe »

hristov wrote: post #83
nickpinkston wrote: post #51

I'm interested in how the United Steelworkers thinks about the generally better track record of Japanese companies with labor relations vs. American management. This makes it seem like it was purely an "American First" kind of sentiment, whereas I could imagine this being better for the workers themselves. This then makes me wonder if the Steelworkers is more company union (ie their leaders are bought off / cushy wit…

The problem is that there isn't much union solidarity across countries and companies have completely different labor relations in different countries. As an example, all Japanese automakers that start factories in the US start them in anti-union states and take a very hostile anti-union stance. This is in contrast with the very pro union stance these companies take in Japan. But Japanese workers do not strike in soli…

Toyota started in California at a union plant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI saw it on asianometry.

Re: US Steel, once the largest corporation, agrees to sell to Nippon Steel

#127

Post by graphe »

verdverm wrote: post #105
FredPret wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan supplied sub-par metal for decades and lied about it. Aluminum, copper and steel. Something to think about next time you get anywhere near a car, train, airplane, skyscraper, or bridge. https://money.cnn.com/2017/10/16/news/companies/kobe-steel-s...

I hoped someone would have additional data to add, thanks! Is a scandal at one company evidence for the entire industry in a country? Is there similar information about other Japanese companies? What about the industry at large? The prevailing sentiment is that Chinese steel has similar issues.

It is when it's as big as Rockefeller oil. It's like finding out TSMC makes chips that degrade suddenly.

Re: US Steel, once the largest corporation, agrees to sell to Nippon Steel

#128

Post by xp84 »

ska wrote: post #101
AlbertCory wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet NUMMI failed. https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a5514/4350856/ Then the building became Solyndra, which also failed. GM, of course, is one of the stupidest companies on Earth, so they'd have trouble selling free beer to college football fans. If you want to blame them you won't get any argument from me.

It's less clear that NUMMI failed to meet Toyota's goals for it.

Right, and that could be just as much a reflection of the fact that American workers are very different than Japanese workers. Also in a high-cost place like the Bay Area I can see how it would be hard to make a case to keep that particular plant, instead of an inland plant like 90% of foreign automaker US plants are.

And once you decide yes, let's move production to Kentucky or whatever, so our employees' rent will be $1000 instead of $2500, that's not going to be a union shop.

None of this means that NUMMI failed or even that Toyota hates unions. I think all this would have gone roughly the same even if NUMMI had become a non-union shop under Toyota.

Re: US Steel, once the largest corporation, agrees to sell to Nippon Steel

#129

Post by s3p »

graphe wrote: post #126
hristov wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that there isn't much union solidarity across countries and companies have completely different labor relations in different countries. As an example, all Japanese automakers that start factories in the US start them in anti-union states and take a very hostile anti-union stance. This is in contrast with the very pro union stance these companies take in Japan. But Japanese workers do not strike in soli…

Toyota started in California at a union plant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI saw it on asianometry.

NUMMI wasn't just Toyota, it was a collaboration between GM and Toyota. So this example isn't really representative of typical Japanese automaker presence in the country.

Re: US Steel, once the largest corporation, agrees to sell to Nippon Steel

#130

Post by alephnerd »

zbyte64 wrote: post #95
Der_Einzige wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This btw is why Japanese cars are better than American cars. It's objectively better to work in a unionized environment. Let's you be "lazier" and get away with half-asserey - great from the worker perspective but from the perspective of a prospective buyer, ideally your product is produced by people who work as hard as possible. The Japanese have a work-hard without half-assing attitude. This is why Toyota/Lexus hav…

We always ignore Nordic unions when ever we trash talk unions. If things were as easy as black and white then there wouldn't even be a need to debate, the productive non-union businesses would just slay and everyone would be working for them.

> ignore Nordic unions

In Sweden (the largest industrial hub in Scandinavia), unions don't collectively negotiate wages with employers - they collectively set wages across an entire industry with the government and business management (think Syndicalism, which is the primary industrial philosophy in Europe compared to the US).

Also, blue collar membership has declined after the 2008 Financial Crisis dealt a killing blow to Volvo and Saab. Blue Collar union membership in Sweden peaked at 85% in the 1990s but has fallen to 59% in 2019.

Some American unions (primarily UAW and Teamsters) would have to fundamentally reform in order to act like European unions, and they would assuredly fight tooth and nail against such a change. Also, the kind of sector level salary negotiations common in Europe might fall foul of American collusion laws, and might anyhow be unpopular with local chapters (hypothetical example: if UAW and all major automotive manufacturers decided to set wages at South Carolina levels nationally, that would be a pay cut in the Midwest).

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