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The "Cheap" Web

potato.cheap

91–100 of 230 posts

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#91
>As software rots, multinationals may become the only players capable of making websites.

They are already the decision makers of who open source software is for.

The thing people fail most at realizing is that you can't have a lot of rich people with a lot of power without having a lot of poor people with no power. The interests of the former will always effectively undermine the latter.

Similarly, you can't have software that serves multinationals and regular people at the same time because the interests of the former will always effectively undermine the latter.

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#92
This is great! I can't really endorse most of the web "innovations" that have happened since the Dot Bomb. There was a time before FAANG when people with low technical knowhow could build something on the web and start earning enough residual income to pay their rent. Like the eBay store on The 40-Year-Old Virgin. Or the Mutiny BBS before that in Halt and Catch Fire. I did it with my business partner via shareware in the early 2000s. Even though the writing was on the wall even then that this was all going corporate.

I think that things started going wrong when the anti-intellectual/anti-education movement gained prominence after 9/11 in the push towards privatization and outsourcing. Before that, we could rely on publicly-funded academia to deliver techniques designed from first principles to decrease our workload.

But since then, we seem to get leftovers like endless Javascript build pipelines handed down to us from the private sector. It's almost like best practices today are designed to mire a startup in endless red tape. While multinational corporations just throw money at it to create a billion dollar pair of scissors that we can't afford.

The way to undo all of that is to do the opposite. Realize that our freedom and prosperity start with our tools and techniques. Find the underemployed exhausted people and give them any resources at all to design better stuff and then leave them alone. Start funding bottom-up and middle-out policies instead of waiting around for trickle-down economics to toss us more scraps. Don't let any one person become a cult of personality preaching how things should be. And stop worshipping capital and focus on getting actual resources (the most important being time) to the middle class through automation and recycling to avoid war. This stuff is so obvious and evident in history that the main challenge is to unlearn one's own programming to be able to perceive alternatives.

Edit: we're talking about HTML not macroeconomic policy. But after spending my entire career having to do things the "easy" way because there's never any time or budget to do things the simple way, I view the complexities of the modern web and the barriers standing in the way of our self-actualization as one and the same.

Edit 2: think scholarships, grants and UBI - not loans, investments and contests.

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it gives you the power to create experiences and share them almost effortlessly That's exactly where the hate comes from: I don't want you, the web designer, to have the power to create experiences, because you (collectively) use that power to force experiences on me that I don't want to have.

Don't visit the website

I hope we can have a more reasoned debate than this. This topic is really important and frankly there's so much to it I hope that hearing others I can learn more.

When I read some of the thread above what I am hearing is: "I don't want people to be able to run programs on my computer without asking explicitly". Which is exactly what the modern web and modern web browsers enable.

If you learned computing in the 90's you were very much told not to install things you do not trust. Everyone remembers downloading some game from the internet and suddenly their OS was trashed via malware or non subtle virus. The modern web is essentially a giant way to circumvent that. Sure only your browser can get shitted up but its the same browser you do your finance in and has access to your GPU.

Certainly it enables easy sharing of programs but so does something like java. Most OS's still recognize a .jar file as an executable and ask you about it before you can run. They never do that before javascript starts processing in your browser.

There are several other issues here such as: - Many essential processes such as banking, medical records and education all rely upon the modern web paradigm at this point. One cannot simply access them on an e-reader or using a browser with javascript disabled. Are you saying you think that someone should be left uneducated or lack medicine if they don't like running an unsecured browser? Should those with privacy concerns just incur the cost of having one "safe" device and one they do their "interacting with the web" one? - The modern web sandbox includes very high access to sensitive things. Many people's file systems are from a cloud platform all of which malware in the browser can access for example. - The modern web can be highly performant but generally its not and requires ever increasing hardware cost simply to do things like read a book.

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#96
I love this. I've seen a lot of similar "use HTML as HTML" type things recently (probably a lot coming from the HATEOAS crowd).

I'm not a web developer, and I really don't understand how we've ended up in this state where:

- web starts as a means to share documents, HTML is built around that

- eventually people want to build general applications (a la google docs) so they build tools that let you build non-document things by pretending they're documents

- everyone thinks those tools are great and starts using them

- 90% of the web is still documents, but now its all built in frameworks where you build a non-document by pretending its a document, even though in actuality, we're normally just building a document in the first place.

The whole thing is a batshit crazy mess and I don't understand how as a global engineering culture we view it as anything other than completely insane.

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#97
post #72

Has there been a serious attempt to define an html/css subset that achieves these kinds of goals? Something that a mere mortal could implement and would cover the vast majority of web designs? I understand the urge to throw out the old and replace it with a new system, but that would be a huge blow to accessiblilty and adoption.

I have been asking for a while if it could be a good idea to make something like asm.js but for webpages: Something to put in a meta tag or something early in the page that lets the browser know this webpage will only use a known-to-be-fast-and-predictable subset of html and css and only use js from a standardized library that provides things like autocomplete and other actually high value interactions.

i'm interested in the answer to this question as well and did a bunch of searching a while back to no avail. maybe the world is waiting for us to start?

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#98

This is great! I can't really endorse most of the web "innovations" that have happened since the Dot Bomb. There was a time before FAANG when people with low technical knowhow could build something on the web and start earning enough residual income to pay their rent. Like the eBay store on The 40-Year-Old Virgin. Or the Mutiny BBS before that in Halt and Catch Fire. I did it with my business partner via shareware in…

There's a shift though, just the last couple of years. Today all browsers support native modals with the dialog element, accordions with details/summary, everything but Firefox supports popovers (dropdowns, tooltips, menus, etc) in plain HTML.

I'd honestly love to be a beginner again learning modern HTML and CSS today, it's not bad at all.

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#99

Absolutely lovely read!! Honestly feels incredible to see other people feel the things I do when most people don't, don't care and don't want to care. Might be a nitpick, but the point is ruined by the god awful aesthetics of the page

[deleted]

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#100

What is a slippy mindset? what does slippy mean in this context? is it an acronym or something? I couldn't find anything about it.

There's a link from the page to here[0] and then out to here[1], which says...

The tadi web is built with a slippy mindset. We try to be as ‘slippy’ as possible.

Being slippy means you’re not stuck.

When you’re slippy, it’s easy to change plan, or rebuild something from scratch. It means you’re not locked in to using a certain tool.

If something breaks, you can choose to fix it, or let it die. It’s ok, because it won’t take long to rebuild it from scratch.

Every time you grow back, you’ll be a bit different. You might be stronger. Or you might be better equipped for your changing needs.

[0]: https://www.todepond.com/wikiblogarden/tadi-web/ [1]: https://www.tadiweb.com/

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