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The "Cheap" Web

potato.cheap

71–80 of 230 posts

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#71

Love it — I think something of value was lost when we collectively decided in 2005 that everyone’s page should look exactly the same (i.e. TheFacebook™ profiles) Sadly that, combined with the changes Google made to deprioritize results from personal sites like these, all but destroyed these neat bespoke pages.

I mean, that's because Facebook Pages are cheap. Businesses don't want to spend money on anything they don't have to, and people aren't much different. The argument for learning to write even basic HTML only to upload it even to something like Amazon S3 (free) and direct a web address to it (not free) or spend money on hosting to not have to learn how to deposit files into an S3 bucket is a LOT of time to spend to accomplish this task. Instead, you can outsource all of that time, effort, and labor to Facebook who already built a website. And yeah, it sucks ass and it's full of undesirable people, but it's free and it accomplishes the same goal.

Google, meanwhile, sees that everyone is setting up Facebook profiles instead of websites because it's easier, and now businesses websites are sometimes quite out of date compared to their Facebook pages so they begin prioritizing results from network sites over regular pages. And now people can follow their favorite businesses on Facebook and be at least somewhat assured they'll always know if, for example, they have to close up one day unexpectedly and won't be doing business again until tomorrow.

This is not meant to be an argument against the cheap web, mind: I'm just saying that people trend towards what is the lowest-cost option (by money, time, effort, or any combination) and use it because it works and gets the job done. I still keep a website, because I value my independence and have no interest in having my thoughts dumbed down to suit the preferences of corporate America. But the vast majority of people do not care about that (until they get smacked with a ban-hammer anyway) and will just stick to the easy option.

Also, I would state: there is no reason we couldn't have a social media site that functions as a public utility instead of a for-profit corporation. We could just... have a Facebook that doesn't need to piss everyone off to make money. Social media without profit motive could be a massive boon to our society.

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#72

Has there been a serious attempt to define an html/css subset that achieves these kinds of goals? Something that a mere mortal could implement and would cover the vast majority of web designs? I understand the urge to throw out the old and replace it with a new system, but that would be a huge blow to accessiblilty and adoption.

I have been asking for a while if it could be a good idea to make something like asm.js but for webpages:

Something to put in a meta tag or something early in the page that lets the browser know this webpage will only use a known-to-be-fast-and-predictable subset of html and css and only use js from a standardized library that provides things like autocomplete and other actually high value interactions.

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#73

That comment about a "simple markup language" is interesting - anyone know what OP is referring to? They mentioned they're attempting to build one.

I don't really get this point... HTML is not _that_ complicated. I mean is:

this

this

this

really "more complex" than something like:

# this

## this

### this

You still need to know that '#' means header / title, and that more of them leads to a lower header level... and this is just for the most basic concept of web pages: headers. Okay, even if it's not markdown, no matter what system you cook up, the syntactic complexity to support the huge number of elements that exist in HTML has to live _somewhere_ right? (Yes, you can argue maybe not ALL of the 100+ HTML tags aren't needed, but probably most of them are!)

While there is something to be said for mega purists who don't even like JavaScript, we're supposed to not even like HTML anymore either? I think at some point you have to accept that building things for the web involves some minimum level of complexity...

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#74
post #18

In a sense OP wants E-ink screens and org/vimwiki/markdown. Styling is where the problem it claims to criticize begins; if you want a truly accessible hypertext book, then you don't need styling, the user should be in charge of this, and the default theme would be whatever easily readable font, black on white, headings 36pt bold, paragraphs 14pt regular, every elements as blocks. Epub, in usage, is actually a cool fo…

> it gives you the power to create experiences and share them almost effortlessly

That's exactly where the hate comes from: I don't want you, the web designer, to have the power to create experiences, because you (collectively) use that power to force experiences on me that I don't want to have.

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#76

That comment about a "simple markup language" is interesting - anyone know what OP is referring to? They mentioned they're attempting to build one.

I don't really get this point... HTML is not _that_ complicated. I mean is: this this this really "more complex" than something like: # this ## this ### this You still need to know that '#' means header / title, and that more of them leads to a lower header level... and this is just for the most basic concept of web pages: headers. Okay, even if it's not markdown, no matter what system you cook up, the syntactic comp…

Agreed, pure semantic HTML5 with minimal (if any) CSS is pretty much equivalent to what Gemini and markdown are going for. HTML5 is also a proper standard unlike markdown, which exists in a variety of incompatible versions.

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#77
post #57

This is why we should be using decentralized XMPP servers to chat since they actually run on potato hardware unlike other chat options.

Matrix Homeservers like Synapse can run on anything now, and there is conduit which should be lighter too.

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#78

I'm a bit conflicted, there's some really good points mixed in with some odd-ball hurdles that I don't think anyone benefits from jumping over. > Cheap to maintain: Most webpages should work indefinitely without falling over. YES, holy crap this is what I find most annoying about some of the things I've made recently. Moving between computers, bringing over old projects, and of course dependancies break down and rot.…

> Cheap to explore: Exploring the web should be pleasant on 1W of power.

Why are we measuring power draw? Yeah your website can be intense enough to draw more power, but this just seems like an odd metric.

Regardless how you'd measure it, a pretty useful metric imho. A nice catch-all encompassing:

Complexity of a website + efficiency of common software implementations + efficiency of common hardware platforms.

Any content that requires a 'beefy' setup on client side to view (or consumes a lot of power doing so), automatically cuts a large chunk of potential audience.

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#79
post #18

In a sense OP wants E-ink screens and org/vimwiki/markdown. Styling is where the problem it claims to criticize begins; if you want a truly accessible hypertext book, then you don't need styling, the user should be in charge of this, and the default theme would be whatever easily readable font, black on white, headings 36pt bold, paragraphs 14pt regular, every elements as blocks. Epub, in usage, is actually a cool fo…

> it gives you the power to create experiences and share them almost effortlessly That's exactly where the hate comes from: I don't want you, the web designer, to have the power to create experiences, because you (collectively) use that power to force experiences on me that I don't want to have.

I didn't express myself as "the web designer" nor I implied that I wished to share experiences with you. What I meant is that I can share experiences to my friends via the browser, which act as a kind of a simple prototyping platform.

I want the power to create experiences for some people I know, in a niche setting, without intentionally inviting anyone else.

Re: The "Cheap" Web

#80
Absolutely lovely read!! Honestly feels incredible to see other people feel the things I do when most people don't, don't care and don't want to care.

Might be a nitpick, but the point is ruined by the god awful aesthetics of the page

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