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How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

nytimes.com

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Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#411

Post by sesm »

csdvrx wrote: post #67
sesm wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gems in Russian rap? As a native speaker I’m genuinely surprised

> Gems in Russian rap? YES: the music and the rythms are great but the visual composition (scenery, etc) is even more wonderful: in Cadillac the drone shots then the rotations with the slow blends of racing games ending the nostril are very unique. The visuals in rap are rarely that creative > As a native speaker I’m genuinely surprised Do you find surprising I also like the social critique from IC3PEAK (Смерти Больш…

I can't recommend anything, I just think that the language itself is not suitable for rap (long words, etc) and you have to butcher the language to make it usable for the genre. There is a reason why Detsl (the first successful Russian rapper) switched to English in his latest tracks.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#412

Post by NiloCK »

n0n0n4t0r wrote: post #318

Hello, I'm a french (non Parisian) reader, and was very surprised by the comments I read. More precisely, the near 100% percent agreement on "french are despising non native speakers, especially the Parisians". I really don't feel it this way and am so surprised. I don't have more to add since I really never thought about this. Speaking of English: I work in an international company since one year and am I the proces…

Anecdote:

A francophone friend of mine from New Brunswick (Quebec's neighbor - sizable Francophone and Franglais population) had a frustrating recent visit to Paris. Many locals switched to English after hearing her speak, and refused to move back to French even after she explained that it is her first language.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#413

Post by anthk »

PeterStuer wrote: post #365
Tade0 wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes me wonder if the word "ananas" and 24h time was already incorporated to it.

24h definitely. Ananas is not so commonly used, but in informal speech, yes, as pineapple is also ananas in most of the EU languages (not in Spanish). Fruit regulation would typically use a more formal (sub)species nomenclature like 'Ananas comosus'.

Spanish too, just not in Spain.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#414

Post by quickthrower2 »

throw_away7653 wrote: post #367
hnarn wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s just partly true. While non-native speakers obviously recognize that something is a swear word, without immersion it’s often hard to gauge how it will be perceived by native speakers, simply because you don’t meet many, or any, to get reactions from. I’m a non native speaker and it wasn’t until University when I met actual Americans that I realized my swearing could be ear-curling from time to time — I simply…

As a Norwegian, we also have swear words that are not that bad. The problem is that the closest translation is often "fuck". So if you meet a Norwegian, don't be surprised if they drop the f-bomb frequently in business meetings. Many are not aware of the social context.

UK has git, sod, bastard, shit, tosser etc. Which you would use at work depends on work culture of course.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#415

Post by [deleted] »

bsaul wrote: post #128
cassepipe wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say that's one of the worst thing in French : The gap between written and spoken is so much bigger than say spanish which I think makes it hard for foreigners.

i'd say the problem is mainly the inability of young generation to be able to write and speak proper french. Speaking slang is fun and everybody's been doing it forever. However being only able to speak slang is a problem.

[deleted]

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#416

Post by boudin »

baby wrote: post #374
michaelscott wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fwiw my own experience in France, even in Paris, was mixed. A number of people refused to speak French with me (although my French was terrible, it's true), while others were either highly encouraging and complimentary, or were content to at least try and speak with me. I've never encountered anyone overtly rude. I realised the "refusing to understand" attitude in French is not out of malice, but simply because the s…

I have one theory: Americans are much more social than French people and expect the French to be as receptive as them to small talk with strangers. But we don’t talk to strangers in France. We value our intimacy bubble and when someone talks to us out of nowhere we feel threatened. There are scripted scenarios for when strangers can interact: saying hi in the elevator is one example (and usually it doesn’t go further…

I don't think that's true.

There's a lot of nuance, socialising is a complex mixture of things which varies a lot between and also within country.

People coming with their home expectations and judging others based on it are often just seen as obnoxious and disrespectful from an outside point of view.

As an example, in France it's quite common to tease/gently mock people you're friend with. Some insults can even be used in a friendly way. This is something that doesn't fly AT ALL in a lot of places and, as a french, you have to be really careful with when meeting non-french. If not, you are just being super mean instead of trying to be friendly.

As well, the American way of using a lot of superlatives, being overly excited about things that are not that exciting can been seen as fake and disrespectful, in a lot of other places.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#417

Post by master-lincoln »

throw_m239339 wrote: post #320
gobip wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Mesdames et Messieurs" is inclusive. You've heard that for as long as you can remember. "Statut : marié(e)" is also inclusive. Check your tax return. The median "." for example "marié.e" is also inclusive and is probably what you're against. Please hate it right, we all use inclusive, even in English (ladies and gentlemen for example). Being inclusive is good, you're doing it too.

> "Mesdames et Messieurs" is inclusive. You've heard that for as long as you can remember. Oh so french was already "inclusive" then? LOL. > The median "." for example "marié.e" is also inclusive I don't care about "inclusivity", it's weasel word for intersectionalists. The "median ." isn't french language, it's unreadable when literred everywhere. "l'écriture inclusive" is a canonical exemple of cultural vandalisme…

I think you don't know what you are talking about.

Intersectionality is a framework where it is believed that for systemic issues it makes sense to not look at individual axis of oppression/empowerment (race, gender, ...), but to look for the combined individual effect (or something like that, apparently there is no consensus on the details)

Using "inclusive language" means that you use words to address the target audience in a way that all members feel approached. So e.g. just saying "Mesdames" would target a female only audience. If there would be males in the target group you would not have included them. It's not a "weasel word" for anything else.

> I don't care about "inclusivity"

So you would be fine if people would call you Madame (assuming you are a male)?

> The "median ." isn't french language, it's unreadable when literred everywhere.

There are similar discussions in other languages, but ultimately, language is evolving naturally and not by a standard body. The language is what people use to communicate. So you are free to dislike it and advocate against it, but saying it isn't french language is meaningless. Every change to a language was not part of the language before.

Yeah, it's advocating for changes on language (what you call war), because language determines what people think.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#418

Post by dfgfek »

bsaul wrote: post #128
cassepipe wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say that's one of the worst thing in French : The gap between written and spoken is so much bigger than say spanish which I think makes it hard for foreigners.

i'd say the problem is mainly the inability of young generation to be able to write and speak proper french. Speaking slang is fun and everybody's been doing it forever. However being only able to speak slang is a problem.

[flagged]

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#419

Post by davidguetta »

nicbou wrote: post #326
n0n0n4t0r wrote: post #318

Hello, I'm a french (non Parisian) reader, and was very surprised by the comments I read. More precisely, the near 100% percent agreement on "french are despising non native speakers, especially the Parisians". I really don't feel it this way and am so surprised. I don't have more to add since I really never thought about this. Speaking of English: I work in an international company since one year and am I the proces…

I'm not surprised. I'm from Quebec. I am more comfortable speaking English with anyone than I am speaking French around French people. They just can't get over the accent, like I'm some sort of curiosity at the zoo. There are so many YouTube videos of French people mocking us. It's not curiosity but a distinctly French superiority complex. My friends who learned French had similar struggles in France versus elsewhere…

I'm french and I think you are mistaking several things:

- Mocking Quebec accent is not 'superiority': it just happens that your accent kind of sounds funny for some reason that I have no other reality behind, probably some specific sounds bites make it 'funny'. I've always thought it's in good fun and certainly not disparaging. All french people I've met including myself have stellar opinion of people from quebec (even more than of their fellow french).

- I've never ever head someone making fun of another non-native french speaker accent. In fact we're happy when someone likes french

Sorry you feel that way.

Re: How Africans are changing French, one joke, rap and book at a time

#420

Post by cmrdporcupine »

Dalewyn wrote: post #207
adev_ wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For most people it's their 3rd or 4th or 5th language, and they were always so full of joy and happiness than I was trying my best. I think this is currently pretty typical in any language. In my experience, Non-native speakers are much more resilient to strong accents and broken grammar. Probably because they passed themselves by this step. I worked in a research laboratory with >100 nationalities: It was extremel…

>"Globish English" Yes yes. I English speak very easy. I English hear too very easy. Easy understand. Can talk each other good just simple words. English very good. *Ahem* Basically, the built-in error correction functionality in English is bloody phenomenal . Literally anyone with a passing understanding and skill in English can use it to communicate effectively. This feature is seldom seen in most other languages l…

English actually has terrible "error correction" on account of extensively using word order to indicate grammatical constructs, rather than inflection. You move the order of words around and it gets an entirely different meaning.

Plus its orthography is ridiculously inconsistent, and a learner is never sure if they've got the right pronunciation when looking at a word because it's been caked over with N layers of different systems (Anglo-Saxon + Norse + Norman French + Latin + Greek etc)

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