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Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

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Re: Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

#101

Post by [deleted] »

eviks wrote: post #84
askonomm wrote: post #52

It's so much worse now. Ever tried installing a different browser on Win11 now? Edge tries to dark pattern all your info with 10 sneaky popups when you first open it. Then on Chrome's website Edge will show a popup indicating that Edge is better, and you should use Edge instead. Then setting Chrome to be default is also a pain, as you have to do that manually for each file type and protocol now.

How is some easy-to-ignore popup or even a few file types/protocols (aren't there still no automatic workarounds?) worse than breaking your system ? > 4, when installed on Windows 95 or NT 4, would replace or update many system files with its own special versions, which sometimes broke functionality of other applications, and made it almost impossible to re-install these OSes once IE 4 was installed.

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

#102

Post by fbdab103 »

throwawaaarrgh wrote: post #37

For the vast majority of use cases today, you no longer have to spend most of your time adding hacks for every kind of browser just to get a page to render correctly. That's pretty huge. Say what you will about the shenanigans corporations pull on the web today, it's far less painful to make a web app now. (Overcomplicated, sure, but overall less painful)

No hacks needed anymore. Now websites will just tell me that I have to use Chrome or GTFO.

Re: Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

#103

Post by pritambaral »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #79
Dalewyn wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gives me a known, unchanging environment that I can rely on to serve my needs day in and day out. My computers are tools, and the operating system is subservient to its administrator who is absolutely not Microsoft. I do not appreciate my computers reinstalling their operating systems every damn week without my knowledge nor permission. Been working this way since Windows Update has been a thing, and I've never be…

>My computers are tools, and the operating system is subservient to its administrator who is absolutely not Microsoft. And you think this administrator is you rather than some botnet master taking advantage of your unpatched system? :-)

That Microsoft refuses to separate security updates from feature updates, so they can treat regular users as beta testers (and worse), is not your parent's fault. Your gripe is with the wrong party here.

Re: Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

#104

Post by smoldesu »

askonomm wrote: post #100
xoac wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I don’t mind using edge to install firefox or safari on os x. You got me.

Well, Safari doesn't have 10 dark-pattern popups it greets you with when you first use it, before you can even type an address into the address bar. Edge does.

Not that Apple is a stranger to accosting you over browsers, though: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/252412228

Re: Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

#105

Post by jeroenhd »

darkwater wrote: post #13

Old greybeard moment: I remember all of this and how people on newsgroups (Usenet) defended Microsoft, said that the IE integration in the OS was a technical requirement and not an MS tactic. It clearly was a deliberated tactic to retain power, just like Chrome is today (even if they look less evil)

This may be controversial, but I think Microsoft was right here.

Their browser was kind of shit when it came to sticking with preexisting standards, but if it weren't for their XmlHttpRequest, who knows what the web may look like. Their security disaster of a browser helped advance the web, not to build an ecosystem or bring possibilities, but to keep their monopoly.

IE's webviews saved a lot of developers from having to write or purchase a bespoke input parsing/formatting/(de)serializing formats whenever rich media features were required. It standardised the API in a way that allowed all developers to assume support was present, similar to the way DirectX could be assumed to either be present already or be a quick install away on any recent GPU in a time when every GPU manufacturer developed their own bespoke GPU API. Plus, Microsoft was already known for its backwards compatibility for developers (well, unless you were an early web developer, I guess).

Firefox showed that the inclusion in the OS doesn't mean Microsoft gets to have a monopoly if the competition is good enough. Then Chrome came and ate Firefox's lunch.

Microsoft's mistake was probably that they were so blatant about everything. They did things because they wanted a monopoly, and weren't afraid to tell others. Google dresses themselves in lies and deceit calling everything "open" and claim they want to "advance the ecosystem" when their true goal is to hold an iron grip on the internet and the devices connecting to it. Anyone who thinks operating system vendors like Apple and Google aren't at least as evil as 2000's Microsoft has fallen for their tricks. Even Linux has this control issue; just look at IBM/Red Hat trying to prevent people from switching to alternatives, or Oracle anything.

Re: Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

#106

Post by bediger4000 »

darkwater wrote: post #13

Old greybeard moment: I remember all of this and how people on newsgroups (Usenet) defended Microsoft, said that the IE integration in the OS was a technical requirement and not an MS tactic. It clearly was a deliberated tactic to retain power, just like Chrome is today (even if they look less evil)

The amount of sucking up to Microsoft, and hero worship of Bill Gates 1995-2010 (or thereabouts) was absolutely astonishing. I always felt at least some had to be paid for, but nobody has ever confessed to stuff like being part of Waggoner Edstrom's propaganda machine.

Re: Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

#107

Post by jeroenhd »

xkjyeah wrote: post #76
Sharlin wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d love to know whether the act of integrating your web browser and your file browser did in fact have any engineering-level benefits or if it was more like a big mess of impedance mismatch.

It probably allowed their engineers to code the design bits in an easier language (imagine, HTML vs C++!), allowing them to iterate and customise the design more quickly. It's probably in the same vein as how phone apps that need a new feature quickly may decide to simply start a WebView.

Microsoft hid their web views well in many places. The special decorations rendered by Windows explorer were largely done through HTML, but they managed to make them feel native.

I think their efforts to make their own browser-based controls feel like native controls was what proved thst Microsoft did actually want the web control for convenience.

Sadly, these days that native feel is hard to come by. UI toolkits are now super complex and the "solution" seems to be to port the entire UI toolkit to a Javascript runtime, then not maintain that for a while and let it deviate from the native standard, and launch a new Javascript runtime to make up for it. Updating anything in the OS has become easy, so you don't need to design give years ahead. In two years, you can just roll out an update and change the look and feel of the built-in applications.

Re: Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

#108

Post by smoldesu »

eimrine wrote: post #78
gchamonlive wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What locks you in to windows? Programs? Corporate compliance? Familiarity?

1. Bigger battery life 2. Decent PDF reader such as STDU, music player such as foobar2000 - if running all of these under Wine the battery life is going to become even less 3. If the computer is not needed to be connected to the Internets even occationally, there is no better option than W7.

> if running all of these under Wine the battery life is going to become even less

Citation? Running a Wineserver should use less resources than a complete Win32 runtime.

Re: Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

#109

Post by dns_snek »

xoac wrote: post #86
askonomm wrote: post #52

It's so much worse now. Ever tried installing a different browser on Win11 now? Edge tries to dark pattern all your info with 10 sneaky popups when you first open it. Then on Chrome's website Edge will show a popup indicating that Edge is better, and you should use Edge instead. Then setting Chrome to be default is also a pain, as you have to do that manually for each file type and protocol now.

Wtf I just install Firefox and literally don't even register that Edge exists. Have used 11 since the beta. People make this into some very big issue while ignoring that the only real monopoly in this space is Google.

Haven't you run into the ""bug"" where certain Microsoft programs open links in Edge, completely disregarding default browser settings?

Assuming you haven't turned off web results in Win11 start menu, try searching for something and click on one of the Bing results. Those used to open Edge, and it certainly wasn't the only program that ignored user preferences.

Re: Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

#110

Post by xoac »

dns_snek wrote: post #109
xoac wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wtf I just install Firefox and literally don't even register that Edge exists. Have used 11 since the beta. People make this into some very big issue while ignoring that the only real monopoly in this space is Google.

Haven't you run into the ""bug"" where certain Microsoft programs open links in Edge, completely disregarding default browser settings? Assuming you haven't turned off web results in Win11 start menu, try searching for something and click on one of the Bing results. Those used to open Edge, and it certainly wasn't the only program that ignored user preferences.

Yeah I disabled web results because I don't like that it slows down search and I would never actually use start menu to search the web.
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