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Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

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Re: Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

#81

Post by darrmit »

cm2187 wrote: post #17

All of these practices feel fairly benign compared to what microsoft is doing now. At the time they merely shipped the browser with the OS. I don't think this would even raise an eyebrow now. They were also accused of adding new features only in IE which forced websites to deal with incompatible browsers. /s of course this is a problem developers do not need to deal with anymore! The Microsoft we are dealing with now…

> All of these practices feel fairly benign

So let's say you're running a Linux distro and you install a browser. That browser then overwrites files elsewhere on the system making it nearly impossible to eradicate.

That's benign? Sounds more like a cancer to me.

Though, I do agree that Microsoft has steadily returned to being somehow even more gross post Windows 7. I've refused to upgrade to Windows 11 on my gaming PC. Never thought I'd be one of those people, but Microsoft's overall trend of gathering data and peddling their own sub-part solutions with blatant disregard for users is just not something I can support.

If it gets to a point where Windows 10 no longer supports the games I want to run, I'll revisit then whether they've come to their senses, but all of the recent news seems to indicate that won't be the case, so chances are I'll just give up on PC gaming entirely.

Re: Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

#82

Post by blackoil »

Sharlin wrote: post #47
Dah00n wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a case for arguing Safari is the new IE.

In a way, but as long as Apple doesn’t have a 95% market share it’s not an abuse of a monopoly like it was with MS. As such, Apple cannot use embrace, extend and extinguish tactics either. Google can and could, given Android’s dominance in some markets (eg. ~95% in India), though globally its share (~70%) is not enough to allow really abusive tactics.

Marketshare is only one factor. In mid-late 2000s, you could have pushed users to install Firefox and then Chrome and say IE is not fully supported, didn't work with enterprises but for captive audience and startups it made sense. Now that isn't an option as users can't migrate away from Safari. So, it is worse now, Safari will decide the baseline and if it doesn't support some feature that you need, you'll have to let go richest x% customers or move to the walled garden.

Re: Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

#83

Post by blackoil »

scarface_74 wrote: post #75
LunicLynx wrote: post #3

Still makes me wonder why the iPhone and android are allowed to exist in their current form.

Should they both just come with a terminal program and an ftp client so end users can just download all of the software they need?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrowserChoice.eu

Re: Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

#84

Post by eviks »

askonomm wrote: post #52

It's so much worse now. Ever tried installing a different browser on Win11 now? Edge tries to dark pattern all your info with 10 sneaky popups when you first open it. Then on Chrome's website Edge will show a popup indicating that Edge is better, and you should use Edge instead. Then setting Chrome to be default is also a pain, as you have to do that manually for each file type and protocol now.

How is some easy-to-ignore popup or even a few file types/protocols (aren't there still no automatic workarounds?) worse than breaking your system ?

> 4, when installed on Windows 95 or NT 4, would replace or update many system files with its own special versions, which sometimes broke functionality of other applications, and made it almost impossible to re-install these OSes once IE 4 was installed.

Re: Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

#85

Post by amadeuspagel »

> Somewhere around this point, people began spewing mindless drivel about how browsers would somehow magically replace operating systems eventually, and how in the future all applications would be "web based". This, of course, got Microsoft's attention.

"[Netscape will soon reduce Windows to] a poorly debugged set of device drivers."

-- Marc Andreesen, then CEO of Netscape

Microsoft was right to worry. The browser is the only app most people use on the laptop today.

What should they have done? I'm asking this not as a rhetorical question, to justify their behaviour, but because I think it's interesting, and they still haven't answered it.

Re: Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

#86

Post by xoac »

askonomm wrote: post #52

It's so much worse now. Ever tried installing a different browser on Win11 now? Edge tries to dark pattern all your info with 10 sneaky popups when you first open it. Then on Chrome's website Edge will show a popup indicating that Edge is better, and you should use Edge instead. Then setting Chrome to be default is also a pain, as you have to do that manually for each file type and protocol now.

Wtf I just install Firefox and literally don't even register that Edge exists. Have used 11 since the beta. People make this into some very big issue while ignoring that the only real monopoly in this space is Google.

Re: Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

#87

Post by blackoil »

"Standards compliant" is a bit of revisionists history. Mid 90s were wild west of browser development. Netscape and later MS were releasing browser every 6-12 months (fast for the time). Standards were defined post-hoc. JS, CSS, ActiveX, Applets were all created along-side or before standards. MS practices were mostly ruthless and some illegal, but as a product it was in later times similar to or little better than Navigator.

Re: Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

#88

Post by android42 »

scarface_74 wrote: post #72
cm2187 wrote: post #17

All of these practices feel fairly benign compared to what microsoft is doing now. At the time they merely shipped the browser with the OS. I don't think this would even raise an eyebrow now. They were also accused of adding new features only in IE which forced websites to deal with incompatible browsers. /s of course this is a problem developers do not need to deal with anymore! The Microsoft we are dealing with now…

Flash was an “internet standard”??? Adobe claimed that it could have gotten Flash working on the original iPhone in 2007 if Apple had allowed it. When Flash did finally come to mobile in 2010, it required 1GB of RAM and a 1Ghz CPU on Android and then it barely worked and wrecked hell on the battery. The original iPhone came with 128MB of RAM and a 400 MHz CPU. An iPhone with those specs didn’t come out until 2011.

They probably half assed the android one, but would have allocated more resources to it if it had a future.

I had flash 5 running just fine on my 2004 palm with 32MB of RAM and a 312 MHz CPU.

This also would have been Macromedia though and not Adobe, not sure how many of the original developers they kept.

Re: Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

#89

Post by askonomm »

xoac wrote: post #86
askonomm wrote: post #52

It's so much worse now. Ever tried installing a different browser on Win11 now? Edge tries to dark pattern all your info with 10 sneaky popups when you first open it. Then on Chrome's website Edge will show a popup indicating that Edge is better, and you should use Edge instead. Then setting Chrome to be default is also a pain, as you have to do that manually for each file type and protocol now.

Wtf I just install Firefox and literally don't even register that Edge exists. Have used 11 since the beta. People make this into some very big issue while ignoring that the only real monopoly in this space is Google.

How do you install Firefox without using Edge? By default there is no other browser on Windows, and presumably you need a browser to visit firefox.com, no? Or you carry Firefox installer around on a USB with you?

Re: Microsoft forced people to install their browser (2010)

#90

Post by AlexandrB »

prof-dr-ir wrote: post #32
cm2187 wrote: post #17

All of these practices feel fairly benign compared to what microsoft is doing now. At the time they merely shipped the browser with the OS. I don't think this would even raise an eyebrow now. They were also accused of adding new features only in IE which forced websites to deal with incompatible browsers. /s of course this is a problem developers do not need to deal with anymore! The Microsoft we are dealing with now…

> At the time they merely shipped the browser with the OS. > They were also accused of adding new features only in IE which forced websites to deal with incompatible browsers I do not think this is an accurate representation of history. First, Microsoft was fighting against the whole concept of a browser as separate from its OS. The fact that one can 'change your default browser', as you so casually say, without chan…

> And when you complained about this the owner would simply add a 'best viewed in IE' icon on their website and start blaming you instead...

History repeats itself, and this is now commonplace with Chrome.

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