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Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

theguardian.com

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Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#211

Post by neilalexander »

MilaM wrote: post #55
raphaelj wrote: post #11

"Politicians in Europe know they will eventually have to impose taxes on electricity (or else raise income taxes)" I heard that a lot, but are we sure about this? Petrol in Europe is taxed at about 50%, but is almost exclusively imported, thus this is the only income for gouvernements. Electricity, on the other side, is also taxed (about 25% here in Belgium). But's it's almost entirely produced in the Union, which cr…

I don't think we will increasy taxes for electricity. How do you even to that, when most cars are charged at home. The more likely scenario is that governments will impose higher road use charges. That has been a trend anyway in most of the developed world.

In the UK, domestic/household electricity is taxed at 5% but electricity from public EV chargers is taxed at 20%.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#212

Post by HDThoreaun »

readthenotes1 wrote: post #210
HDThoreaun wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, €80,000 luxury cars are not doing the same as the economy cars are. Their job is more than just point A to point B. You can get electric cars for much less than that if you dont care about luxury and signaling.

You can get ICE cars for less as well....

Then compare the prices of those cars. Their comment is acting like electric cars are twice as expensive as comparable ice cars and thats just not true.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#213

Post by neilalexander »

oceanplexian wrote: post #137
wazoox wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Petrol fire is much more common than battery fires, which are vanishingly rare. The oil infrastructure must be dismantled as fast as possible. Recycling of batteries is a chicken-egg problem : it's ramping up, but is necessarily lagging behind EV market penetration. It's an eminently solvable problem -- lead batteries are recycled way over 95% already. Remember : a vehicle lasts about 12 to 14 years. in 2035 (12 year…

Petrol cars don’t burn your house down in the middle of the night while the car is turned off. This happened several times with the Bolt EV (A car I owned) until GM had to recall them all and eventually cancel the entire line and stop manufacturing it. These batteries are extremely dangerous and lithium fires can’t be extinguished like a gasoline fire since the reaction creates its own oxygen.

Data from the Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency recently found that ICE cars could be up to 20 times more likely to catch fire. https://www.msb.se/sv/aktuellt/nyheter/2023/maj/brander-i-el...

It also wasn't that long ago that a diesel car that was parked and switched off spontaneously caught fire and wrote off an entire multi-storey car park at Luton Airport, so there's an anecdote for all.

That's not to say that problems with the Bolt weren't serious but they are not representative of the EV market as a whole.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#214

Post by Ferret7446 »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #130
d1sxeyes wrote: post #6

Answer: yes. The article concedes that TCO over the lifetime of the vehicle is only just at parity with the middle of the petrol car range, the upfront cost is higher, insurance costs tend to be higher, and on top of that you have “range anxiety” to worry about. There are certainly pros to electric cars, but as yet price is not one.

The crucial aspect here is “yet.” Most car makers are on their very first foray into EV, but have been perfecting efficiencies in ICE for many decades. The summary judgement articles and whatnot declaring EV dead on arrival ignore that ICE marginal improvements are slow and expensive, while EV marginal improvements are fast and cheap. How long until EV are cheaper and more reliable? I’ll wager in the span of 5 years.…

As you say, The crucial aspect here is “yet” meaning at the moment, no. In the future, maybe yes, maybe still no.

Until and if that day comes, then yes. But right now it's no. Speculation is speculation.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#215

Post by Tommstein »

simonblack wrote: post #205

Get back to me when there is enough infrastructure to support buying an EV as against an ICE car. That means having an electrical grid that can support charging millions of cars every night, having sufficient charging stations that you don't have to queue up to access one, having sufficient charging stations that you can be assured of finding enough of them through rural, regional or desert areas. In other words, eve…

Yep. I know most driving isn't long-distance in rental cars, but I was traveling a few weeks ago and offered an electric car instead of the hybrid I had reserved, but since I was going to be driving long distances through rural areas, I declined. Not interested in finding where the hell to charge the car, in general or close enough to the airport for it to still have an acceptable amount of charge left when I returned it, when I could just pull into any gas station and quickly refill a non-electric car.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#216

Post by Kirby64 »

faeranne wrote: post #190
Kirby64 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reads paranoid and hyperbolic. I’m gonna need sources that you actually cannot repair an EV yourself. Parts sourcing may be difficult, and I’m sure there’s some certification you need as a mechanic to work on high voltage systems in some states, but the vast vast majority of work on EVs is boring normal stuff like brakes, fluids, etc. Nobody is getting thrown in jail for opening the hood on their own car, that’s…

> This reads paranoid and hyperbolic. It does read paranoid, because the whole things should be ridiculous in a sane world. That's part of the problem. This shouldn't even be a concern, but it is. > I'm gonna needs source... Unfortunately the source is to read through Oklahoma Statute 40-142, since it's a fairly interwoven and long document that establishes what Alternate Fuel Technicians must do to be certified, wha…

My reading of 40-142 seems to me that if you offer for work/work (i.e., payment in exchange for services) then you require this license. Nowhere do I see any restriction on an individual performing their own service. That's distinctly not work. Find me evidence or a news article of someone getting arrested or fined for working on their own EV in OK.

Also, you're citing multiple unrelated things to actual cars here. Sure, I agree, that remote access/updates can be used maliciously. No doubt.

In actual practice though, what car prevents you from changing brake pads yourself? What car has ACTUALLY been 'bricked for your safety' ? This is hysteria not backed by reality. You can do maintenance on your own car, and I don't see that going away any time soon. Sure, some companies (BMW seems to love to do this...) make it extremely hard to pull diagnostic codes, but there is nobody bricking your car for changing out the infotainment system.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#217

Post by Tommstein »

Nextgrid wrote: post #204
oceanplexian wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If renewables are substantially cheaper, why did the UK and the rest of Europe have an energy crisis and record energy prices? The two things don’t add up, on one hand you have people claiming renewables are cheaper than ever, on the other you have skyrocketing electric bills. If renewables don’t actually decrease energy prices for consumers then claiming it’s cheaper is misleading.

> why did the UK and the rest of Europe have an energy crisis and record energy prices? What senile, old, corrupt and/or stupid politicians decide isn't necessarily the rational choice, and in fact is often the opposite. Mismanagement shouldn't be seen as a failure or a flaw of the underlying technology.

> What senile, old, corrupt and/or stupid politicians decide isn't necessarily the rational choice, and in fact is often the opposite.

For example, these smirking German assholes, who I would have enjoyed seeing being interviewed last winter after Russia knocked the dumb smirks off their faces: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfJv9QYrlwg

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#218

Post by Kirby64 »

ghusto wrote: post #177
Kirby64 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What ICE car can you buy that fits that criteria for 2k? Anything that’s only 2k for a car these days has north of 100k miles and likely is in pretty rough shape.

Never bought a car for more than 2k, and never had any problems. They’re indeed usually over 100k miles, but definitely not in rough shape. In fact, my first car was under a grand, and it was built like a tank. I was not kind to that thing, and the only thing that killed it in the end was a head on collision (everyone was okay, lady got some expensive driving lesson that day). I go for older cars because they tend to…

I just parsed the classifieds and I don't know where you're finding these reliable cars for under 2 grand. The only thing I see in the sub $2k price range are cars that need engines, cars with >200k miles and suspiciously few details on running history, or cars that are literally wrecked. I wouldn't trust any of those cars to be reliable.

There's some cars that look like they're in 'decent' condition under $5k, but they again have >150k miles almost universally. Likely in need of some pretty expensive maintenance somewhat soon at that mileage.

I bought a car for $2k that was decent and And yes, ICE = internal combustion engine.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#219

Post by jeffrallen »

dieselgate wrote: post #153
hightrix wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of my biggest complaints. Many EVs look like they are EVs. I want an EV that looks like a car.

The e-golf is certainly the most modest EV i've seen around

Renault Zoes look like regular cars too.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#220

Post by pdn1 »

Bissness wrote: post #81

Electric cars do not make sense to own if you are not also owning a garage where you can charge them overnight. Also, if you are unwilling to add 1+ hour(s) to your travel time on longer distances.

Also cost... They aren't worth more than a gas car
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