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Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

theguardian.com

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Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#171

Post by Kim_Bruning »

relativ575 wrote: post #123
techterrier wrote: post #4

Just get rid of the damn cars.

Did you know that car ownership in the Netherlands, the country renown for its cycling culture, has been on the rise? https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2020/10/car-fleet-growing-fast...

Besides having world class water infrastructure and great cycling infrastructure and great public transport -- would it surprise you that the Netherlands is also one of the better countries in the world to drive in?

To steal a famous youtube channel's title: it's Not Just Bikes.[1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RRE2rDw4k "The Best Country In The World For Drivers" (This might be a slight exaggeration to get more youtube clicks? Who knows! But it tells the story ok)

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#172

Post by theshrike79 »

MichaelRo wrote: post #143

I have an acquaintance that bought an electric BMW for roughly €80,000. My Dacia has cost me €4500 when it was brand new 14 years ago and I'm still driving it. In my opinion electric cars are too expensive, yeah :)

A friend bought a house and 5 acres of land for $500k

I’m living in my mom’s basement for free.

In my opinion houses are too expensive.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#173

Post by devilbunny »

br3d wrote: post #22
CraigJPerry wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> That's why you see so many expensive cars driven by people who can't afford them How is it possible to keep possession of the car if you’re not paying the contractual obligation? Is there some exception for cars? For example, failing to keep up with mortgage payments will eventually see you lose the property.

OP meant "can't afford them" in the sense of "couldn't afford the full price of". There are lots of people here in the UK on medium incomes driving around in £80,000 cars using this finance

Are cars ridiculously overpriced in the UK? GBP 80000 is USD 101000 right now, which is basically high-end sports cars or a Mercedes S class or BMW 7 series. I’m a very high earner and have never paid USD 70000 for a car.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#174

Post by helij »

marcusverus wrote: post #125
helij wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our car was £40k new. We've been paying £400/month for 2.5 years now. It's a 4 year lease. We still owe £22k. They gave us £7k for our old car - that was the difference between how much we owed and how much previous car was worth. Now the latest one we can buy for around £18k once the lease is up I think. Currently I'm being offered £31k for it. So, rough calculation is that the car cost us £120/month in the last 2.5…

> if you take a look at the numbers above it's not that bad and we drive a new, safe, no issues (free servicing) car every 3-4 years. Driving a new car every few years is incredibly decadent. If you bought a car, paid it off in 5 years and drove it for another 10, you’d be saving thousands every year. Repeat that cycle every 15 years and invest the savings, and you’re talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars in…

As per my calculations our two latest cars cost us around £200/month. That is £2400 per year or £24000 per 10 years. Pretty good for cars costing £30k and £40k new. Buying the same cars and driving them for 15 years would actually cost the same or more. We were lucky as prices of second hand cars were good so we actually came ahead. This might change in the future.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#175

Post by Kim_Bruning »

oceanplexian wrote: post #131
PaulKeeble wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While true if you haven't noticed it Solar and Wind are taking off at a staggering rate for electrical production. At prices around $15 per MWH they are substantially cheaper than gas/coal/oil electrical production. The economics just work out now in a big way and renewables are so much cheaper fossil fuels days are numbered. Besides if you just car about the economics and not the potential reduction on the planet th…

If renewables are substantially cheaper, why did the UK and the rest of Europe have an energy crisis and record energy prices? The two things don’t add up, on one hand you have people claiming renewables are cheaper than ever, on the other you have skyrocketing electric bills. If renewables don’t actually decrease energy prices for consumers then claiming it’s cheaper is misleading.

There's a war on and some gas lines were blown up. Consequences: A cold winter last winter, and countries scrambling to build expensive LNG terminals.

Last time I looked in this corner of Europe, it takes about 3-6 months to get an appointment to install solar and/or an electric heat pump. Installers can't keep up with demand, and they can't train new people faster than they're already doing.

That definitely isn't happening because the gas alternatives are so cheap.

Energy prices are high not because people are converting. They're high because of the shock caused by the (then) sudden unexpected war in Ukraine, and people simply can't convert fast enough.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#176

Post by helij »

Nextgrid wrote: post #132
marcusverus wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you take a look at the numbers above it's not that bad and we drive a new, safe, no issues (free servicing) car every 3-4 years. Driving a new car every few years is incredibly decadent. If you bought a car, paid it off in 5 years and drove it for another 10, you’d be saving thousands every year. Repeat that cycle every 15 years and invest the savings, and you’re talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars in…

> drove it for another 10 What about maintenance? There's a lot of moving parts (often the labor to get to the part costs more than the part itself) and a stroke of bad luck can quickly balloon into 4-digit sums. Paying a flat monthly fee for transport sounds like an attractive option to not have to worry about any of that.

This is exactly it. Worry free transport option. We have a set monthly budget for transport and we get whatever car is we think best available for our budget when lease is up. I never have to worry about service, the car is always in warranty, etc.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#177

Post by ghusto »

Kirby64 wrote: post #111
ghusto wrote: post #68

When we can buy second hand electric cars _with reliable batteries that aren’t near end of life_ for 2k, we can have a discussion. Arguments of affordability before that point will rely on cherry picking, and I call bullshit on every one of them. I know many people pay way more for cars, even buying ones they can’t afford with loans, but most of the people I know aren’t in that group.

What ICE car can you buy that fits that criteria for 2k? Anything that’s only 2k for a car these days has north of 100k miles and likely is in pretty rough shape.

Never bought a car for more than 2k, and never had any problems. They’re indeed usually over 100k miles, but definitely not in rough shape. In fact, my first car was under a grand, and it was built like a tank. I was not kind to that thing, and the only thing that killed it in the end was a head on collision (everyone was okay, lady got some expensive driving lesson that day).

I go for older cars because they tend to actually be more reliable, and the plus side is they’re cheaper.

I’m presuming “ICE” means internal combustion engine?

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#178

Post by tapoxi »

bwanab wrote: post #164
Bissness wrote: post #81

Electric cars do not make sense to own if you are not also owning a garage where you can charge them overnight. Also, if you are unwilling to add 1+ hour(s) to your travel time on longer distances.

Is this opinion based on experience or speculation? I had a house with garage and it was nice, but I moved to an apt with street parking. I had feared it would be a pain, and I'd be lying if I said it was as convenient, but it really hasn't been very difficult. Moving the car every two weeks for street cleaning has been worse. As for long distances, I haven't found that to be a big issue. Of course, I have a Tesla wh…

It's speculation on the part of the buyer. Why introduce more anxiety when you can just go with what you already know?

If every gas station supported CCS it would be less of an issue, but usually you need to find a station nearby and wait for 20-40 minutes if it's CCS or 6-8 hours if it's level 2.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#179

Post by bryanlarsen »

devilbunny wrote: post #170
bryanlarsen wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did a 3000km trip 4 times (twice each way) during the pandemic. Charging added 15 minutes to the trip. Everybody has to eat/sleep/bathroom, and that can happen at the same time as charging.

You’re using a very unusual definition there. 3000 km is a long way and fueling up an ICE vehicle would take at least three full tanks, each one of which takes about ten minutes. Ignore sleeping, eating, and bathroom (I used to drive 1500 km in one day, three fuel stops, bathroom with that, no food - you won’t die if you don’t eat for a day). There’s no way you charged every 500 km and only paid a 15 minute penalty.…

15 minutes more than it would have taken if we used a gas car. I was driving with the family. Regular stops would have been required no matter what car I had. Certainly 2 25 year olds driving in shifts with steel bladders could have made the trip quicker.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#180

Post by bryanlarsen »

grimjack00 wrote: post #157
bryanlarsen wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's ridiculous. My trip was from Ottawa Canada to Saskatoon. It goes through some seriously unpopulated territory, unlike yours. It does follow major highways, so there are Tesla superchargers along the route every 100-150 km or so. We'd stay at a hotel with charging overnight so start at 100%, drive for 2.5 hours and then bathroom/charge for 15-20 mins, drive another 2.5 and eat/charge for 40 or so, repeat the mo…

So you're not charging back up to 100% until the overnight stop? When I think about how I would do a long trip in an EV, I envision getting a full charge, because first, that's what I currently do with gasoline, and second, I want as much range as possible to account for unplanned detours and/or other unexpected issues.

Once or twice we did hit 100% because supper took longer than expected, but otherwise you never charge to 100%.

A critical component is the trip computer that knows about upcoming construction and charger status. On our first trip the Sault Ste Marie charger was down, and Sault Ste Marie WaWa is the longest stretch between chargers because of a huge provincial park. But the car warned us about it and told us to make sure we were above 90% at Blind River.

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