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Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

fortune.com

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Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#51

Post by Ekaros »

MandieD wrote: post #48
Ekaros wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Already failed to do due diligence and ensure system he was using was fully safe. Do you think removal of license would prevent anything? As far as I know not all cars yet have license readers before starting.

Removing a negligent driver’s license turns their next speeding ticket or red light camera into driving on a suspended or revoked license, which in some places carries the possibility of jail time.

So how well those DUI laws work? No one is driving under influence right?

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#52

Post by jmpman »

grecy wrote: post #34
justin_oaks wrote: post #21

I don't believe that partially automated driving, as shown by Autopilot is fit for human use. People will rely on it as if it's fully automated and more accidents like this will happen. We see this same problem with face recognition software that says an innocent man's face matches a criminal. The cops just accept what the computer says and arrest people because the computer says it's a match. We can't have the machi…

> I don't believe that partially automated driving, as shown by Autopilot is fit for human use. People will rely on it as if it's fully automated and more accidents like this will happen. Keep in mind 125 people are killed on the roads every single day in the US. If all vehicles magically switched to this system overnight and the system only killed 100 people per day, that would be a huge win. The fact some people wi…

Continuing your analysis - vehicles magically switched to this system overnight and the system only killed 100 people per day. Huge win. But then you find out that the drivers of those 100 daily accidents were all browsing their phone when the accidents happened. Would we ban phone usage while using autopilot? And if we did ban phone usage while using autopilot, and someone was using their phone… should they go to jail?

I expect the 125 people who are killed today have a high factor of alcohol being involved, and our society doesn’t take drunk driving lightly. Those drivers would certainly go to jail. Why would phone use be any more accepted if the death rate suddenly dropped to 124, or, as in your hypothetical situation, 100?

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#53

Post by Enginerrrd »

MandieD wrote: post #37
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> insane that killing two people in a car accident is treated with a fine instead of ANY jail time Which component of justice— retribution, incapacitation, deterrence, rehabilitation and reparation [1]—is served by jailing this person? The only one I see is retribution. Given the families are pursuing damages, the reparation prerogative is better served with him out of jail (and not draining his assets fighting priso…

Deterrence: it would make a lot of inattentive drivers take driving a bit more seriously if jail time could be the result of irresponsibility behind the wheel. Or give those who negligently kill with their cars a choice: serve the jail time for your negligent homicide, or give up your license for life. That would still have a deterrent effect while not being life-ruining (just life-inconveniencing)

Except that studies show over and over that increasing punishments doesn't work as a deterrence method. Increasing the likelihood of getting caught/facing punishment is far more effective than increasing the punishment. Unfortunately, in this case, you'd have to target behaviors contributing to pedestrian fatalities rather than the fatalities themselves since that's so infrequent and unlikely for a given driver to adjust their behavior.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#54

Post by chroma »

simondotau wrote: post #42
justin_oaks wrote: post #21

I don't believe that partially automated driving, as shown by Autopilot is fit for human use. People will rely on it as if it's fully automated and more accidents like this will happen. We see this same problem with face recognition software that says an innocent man's face matches a criminal. The cops just accept what the computer says and arrest people because the computer says it's a match. We can't have the machi…

Most new cars are sold with features roughly in parity with Autopilot. If this was a problem, we’d already see it in pedestrian injury statistics. (You may have a point with respect to systems like Supercruise and Tesla FSD, but that’s not the topic of this article.)

Tesla offers three tiers of automated driving:

Autopilot. This automatically accelerates, decelerates, and steers on roads. This works on all roads with lane markings, not just limited access freeways. It also obeys speed limit signs.

Enhanced autopilot. This is autopilot but will also self drive from on-ramp to off-ramp, changing lanes to pass (and exit the passing lane), taking interchanges to other freeways, and exiting the offramp.

Full self driving beta. This will drive on pretty much any street. Early on it was purely a gimmick that required constant intervention, but lately it’s gotten pretty good. My main complaint is that it drives too conservatively, causing impatient drivers to behave erratically around you. Imagine someone driving as if they're taking a driving test. Because of that I tend to drive manually unless I’m on a freeway.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#56

Post by ajross »

wilg wrote: post #43
ajross wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then we can actually determine where the problem is, and the scope of it. Unpopular opinion: there probably isn't a problem? None of these system is going to be perfectly safe, but there's quite a bit of evidence at this point that they're all safer, as actually used (which, yes, includes some misuse) than a human driver is at doing the same task. No one wants to hear that though, so instead we take "where the prob…

Then this data will prove that, and eliminate the problem of people worrying about it.

There's plenty of data already though (of which a very clear LACK of signal should be a pretty obvious one). People, likely you included, discount that stuff because it doesn't confirm their priors. And so they demand new data that they believe will. And if it doesn't? Goalposts are movable for a reason.

At the end of the day you either believe or you don't. But if there was an actual problem, we'd know. There are millions of these things on the street now.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#57

Post by wilg »

jmpman wrote: post #52
grecy wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't believe that partially automated driving, as shown by Autopilot is fit for human use. People will rely on it as if it's fully automated and more accidents like this will happen. Keep in mind 125 people are killed on the roads every single day in the US. If all vehicles magically switched to this system overnight and the system only killed 100 people per day, that would be a huge win. The fact some people wi…

Continuing your analysis - vehicles magically switched to this system overnight and the system only killed 100 people per day. Huge win. But then you find out that the drivers of those 100 daily accidents were all browsing their phone when the accidents happened. Would we ban phone usage while using autopilot? And if we did ban phone usage while using autopilot, and someone was using their phone… should they go to ja…

What? Phone usage is already banned while driving, period. Also, along with other Autopilot distractions, it is also detected by the cabin camera and it can kick you from using it.

So I guess the answer to your questions are yes and yes?

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#58

Post by wilg »

ajross wrote: post #56
wilg wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then this data will prove that, and eliminate the problem of people worrying about it.

There's plenty of data already though (of which a very clear LACK of signal should be a pretty obvious one). People, likely you included, discount that stuff because it doesn't confirm their priors. And so they demand new data that they believe will. And if it doesn't? Goalposts are movable for a reason. At the end of the day you either believe or you don't. But if there was an actual problem, we'd know. There are mi…

It's not a question of belief, it's a question of collecting the data. The data I mentioned is reasonable, easy to collect, and currently unavailable.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#59

Post by wilg »

cush wrote: post #47
wilg wrote: post #27

I would like the NHTSA to gather and publish robust data on: • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's "self-driving" systems • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's LKAS (lane keeping assistant) systems • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's TACC (traffic aware cruise control) • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's regular cruise control • Crashes per mile under manual control Break each out by highway, subu…

Seriously. Tesla loyalists will say there’s net fewer accidents because of Autopilot, and maybe there are, but it’s still Tesla’s responsibility to prevent the system from being misused or entering dangerous situations, whether through negligence or ignorance. Hopefully the recent recall was a wake up call.

I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said. I want to know if there actually are fewer accidents because of Autopilot versus other situations. People are suspect of Tesla's own published data, but we can just easily answer it. For some reason, nobody advocates for finding out what's happening, just complaining one way or the other.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#60

Post by endymi0n »

wilg wrote: post #27

I would like the NHTSA to gather and publish robust data on: • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's "self-driving" systems • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's LKAS (lane keeping assistant) systems • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's TACC (traffic aware cruise control) • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's regular cruise control • Crashes per mile under manual control Break each out by highway, subu…

> • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's "self-driving" systems

...counting miles where self-driving was activated including the 5 minutes afterwards — https://www.motortrend.com/news/nhtsa-tesla-autopilot-invest...

(Honi soit qui mal y pense.)

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