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Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

fortune.com

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Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#41

Post by ajross »

wilg wrote: post #27

I would like the NHTSA to gather and publish robust data on: • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's "self-driving" systems • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's LKAS (lane keeping assistant) systems • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's TACC (traffic aware cruise control) • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's regular cruise control • Crashes per mile under manual control Break each out by highway, subu…

> Then we can actually determine where the problem is, and the scope of it.

Unpopular opinion: there probably isn't a problem? None of these system is going to be perfectly safe, but there's quite a bit of evidence at this point that they're all safer, as actually used (which, yes, includes some misuse) than a human driver is at doing the same task.

No one wants to hear that though, so instead we take "where the problem is" as a prior and continue arguments like this ad nauseum.

Full disclosure: my car is going to drive me to Idaho in the morning.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#42

Post by simondotau »

justin_oaks wrote: post #21

I don't believe that partially automated driving, as shown by Autopilot is fit for human use. People will rely on it as if it's fully automated and more accidents like this will happen. We see this same problem with face recognition software that says an innocent man's face matches a criminal. The cops just accept what the computer says and arrest people because the computer says it's a match. We can't have the machi…

Most new cars are sold with features roughly in parity with Autopilot. If this was a problem, we’d already see it in pedestrian injury statistics.

(You may have a point with respect to systems like Supercruise and Tesla FSD, but that’s not the topic of this article.)

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#43

Post by wilg »

ajross wrote: post #41
wilg wrote: post #27

I would like the NHTSA to gather and publish robust data on: • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's "self-driving" systems • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's LKAS (lane keeping assistant) systems • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's TACC (traffic aware cruise control) • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's regular cruise control • Crashes per mile under manual control Break each out by highway, subu…

> Then we can actually determine where the problem is, and the scope of it. Unpopular opinion: there probably isn't a problem? None of these system is going to be perfectly safe, but there's quite a bit of evidence at this point that they're all safer, as actually used (which, yes, includes some misuse) than a human driver is at doing the same task. No one wants to hear that though, so instead we take "where the prob…

Then this data will prove that, and eliminate the problem of people worrying about it.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#44

Post by chroma »

wilg wrote: post #27

I would like the NHTSA to gather and publish robust data on: • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's "self-driving" systems • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's LKAS (lane keeping assistant) systems • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's TACC (traffic aware cruise control) • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's regular cruise control • Crashes per mile under manual control Break each out by highway, subu…

You could look at liability insurance rates. If the same driver has a lower insurance rate for a car with a certain automated system, then that system probably makes driving safer.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#45

Post by kenjackson »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #6
HPMOR wrote: post #3

The incentives in the United States strongly favor pedestrian fatalities and reckless driving. It is insane that killing two people in a car accident is treated with a fine instead of ANY jail time. There’s a reason why fatalities on roadways continue to increase in the US. This is one of them.

> insane that killing two people in a car accident is treated with a fine instead of ANY jail time Which component of justice— retribution, incapacitation, deterrence, rehabilitation and reparation [1]—is served by jailing this person? The only one I see is retribution. Given the families are pursuing damages, the reparation prerogative is better served with him out of jail (and not draining his assets fighting priso…

It seems clear that incapacitation is served. And maybe deterrence. And quite possibly rehabilitation.

For a lot of people $23k is minimal disruption to their life.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#46

Post by wilg »

chroma wrote: post #44
wilg wrote: post #27

I would like the NHTSA to gather and publish robust data on: • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's "self-driving" systems • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's LKAS (lane keeping assistant) systems • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's TACC (traffic aware cruise control) • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's regular cruise control • Crashes per mile under manual control Break each out by highway, subu…

You could look at liability insurance rates. If the same driver has a lower insurance rate for a car with a certain automated system, then that system probably makes driving safer.

Too many confounding variables. People want to know if these systems are safe. Should be trivial for a regulatory agency to make this happen.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#47

Post by cush »

wilg wrote: post #27

I would like the NHTSA to gather and publish robust data on: • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's "self-driving" systems • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's LKAS (lane keeping assistant) systems • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's TACC (traffic aware cruise control) • Crashes per mile on each manufacturer's regular cruise control • Crashes per mile under manual control Break each out by highway, subu…

Seriously. Tesla loyalists will say there’s net fewer accidents because of Autopilot, and maybe there are, but it’s still Tesla’s responsibility to prevent the system from being misused or entering dangerous situations, whether through negligence or ignorance. Hopefully the recent recall was a wake up call.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#48

Post by MandieD »

Ekaros wrote: post #25
wilg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So would revoking the driver's license.

Already failed to do due diligence and ensure system he was using was fully safe. Do you think removal of license would prevent anything? As far as I know not all cars yet have license readers before starting.

Removing a negligent driver’s license turns their next speeding ticket or red light camera into driving on a suspended or revoked license, which in some places carries the possibility of jail time.

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#49

Post by kenjackson »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #14
Ekaros wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Retribution and deterrence certainly would work with reasonable penalty let's say 10 years per murdered person. Also that sort of sentence would work for incapacitation. As clearly 23k is not high enough to stop many people from repeating this crime...

> say 10 years per murdered person Sure. Nobody was murdered. > clearly 23k is not high enough to stop many people from repeating this crime That’s not the penalty. It’s a criminal conviction, the fine and probation. I don’t know the terms of the probation, but I assume it means he goes to jail for traffic infractions. Also, he’s going to pay a lot more than $23k given the civil case is ongoing.

How often do people actually pay civil damages from these sorts of cases? It seems like there is a whole cottage industry around finding loopholes to avoid paying.

Do you expect Giuliani to pay a cent?

Re: Tesla driver who killed 2 people while using autopilot must pay $23,000, no jail

#50

Post by cush »

HPMOR wrote: post #3

The incentives in the United States strongly favor pedestrian fatalities and reckless driving. It is insane that killing two people in a car accident is treated with a fine instead of ANY jail time. There’s a reason why fatalities on roadways continue to increase in the US. This is one of them.

There will come a day when cars truly drive themselves and still get into accidents, and I’m willing to bet that car manufacturers will somehow have zero liability. They should be held accountable just like any driver would.
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