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Apple responds to the Beeper iMessage saga: 'We took steps to protect our users'

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Re: Apple responds to the Beeper iMessage saga: 'We took steps to protect our users'

#51

Post by lxgr »

TheRealPomax wrote: post #17
lol768 wrote: post #13

This isn't a technical problem. Nobody really uses iMessage enough in the EU, but in the USA where people seem to shun use of third-party messaging apps like WhatsApp, the solution would be to deem Apple a "gatekeeper" under legislation equivalent to the Digital Markets Act and force interoperability via regulation given Apple's market dominance. The regulatory process has worked with side-loading, and EU citizens wi…

Almost 80 million users of whatsapp in the US (330m pop) vs 120 million users in all of Europe (746m pop) kind of undermines that line of reasoning? If anything, the US uses whatsapp way more than Europe. If we were looking at true third party messaging platforms that aren't owned by trillion dollar mega corps that can push their products onto every phone, then... maybe? The US barely uses Telegram compared to Europe…

These numbers can't possibly be true.

I might be living in a massive bubble, but WhatsApp is the canonical successor of SMS in Europe, while the few WhatsApp users that I've met in the US almost all use it to stay in touch with friends or family abroad.

Re: Apple responds to the Beeper iMessage saga: 'We took steps to protect our users'

#53

Post by shreyansh_k »

PrimeMcFly wrote: post #40
sbuk wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> " The question is why the customers don't give Apple and its pathetic excuses the middle finger- and instead praise the wisdom of the company and whine about Android users not buying iPhones " Likewise, Android users "whine" about being not let in an use all sorts of logical fallacies to make their case. The solution, which the rest of the Android and iOS using planet has come to, is to simply use another cross pla…

Everyone uses phones. One phone manufacturer shouldn't be able to ostracize customers of every other phone manufacturer, punish them, and deliberately cripple the experience for its users. > Android users whine about being not let in an use all sorts of logical fallacies to make their case Name 5.

While I'm not an Apple fanboy but I don't think it's Apple's fault that the ecosystem _they_ invested in became useful to them as well as their people.

Argument such as "everyone uses phones..." don't seem very conductive to a fruitful discussion. For an example, similar case can be made for all AI tech (ChatGPT, Gemini etc) as all major tech companies are doing AI development these days.

"Everyone is doing AI. One AI organisation shouldn't be able to ostracize customers of every other AI organisation, punish them, and deliberately cripple the experience for its users."

The above is the same argument from a different perspective and is making a similar case as yours but for ChatGPT and Gemini. I hope that am I able to contrast the similarities sufficiently.

Re: Apple responds to the Beeper iMessage saga: 'We took steps to protect our users'

#54

Post by PrimeMcFly »

LordKeren wrote: post #52
PrimeMcFly wrote: post #34

I really hope this goes to court and Apple loses. It would be quite entertaining.

What law do you think Apple is breaking by preventing beeper usage?

None. I didn't imply I thought they were breaking any law.

I think Apple might try to sue Beeper though.

Re: Apple responds to the Beeper iMessage saga: 'We took steps to protect our users'

#55

Post by sbuk »

PrimeMcFly wrote: post #50
sbuk wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android users or fallacies?

Fallacies.

There are five in the GPs post:

- Strawman

- Ad Hominem

- False Dilemma

- Hasty Generalization

- Appeal to Emotion

One more for free; Begging the Question...

Re: Apple responds to the Beeper iMessage saga: 'We took steps to protect our users'

#56

Post by PrimeMcFly »

shreyansh_k wrote: post #53
PrimeMcFly wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone uses phones. One phone manufacturer shouldn't be able to ostracize customers of every other phone manufacturer, punish them, and deliberately cripple the experience for its users. > Android users whine about being not let in an use all sorts of logical fallacies to make their case Name 5.

While I'm not an Apple fanboy but I don't think it's Apple's fault that the ecosystem _they_ invested in became useful to them as well as their people. Argument such as "everyone uses phones..." don't seem very conductive to a fruitful discussion. For an example, similar case can be made for all AI tech (ChatGPT, Gemini etc) as all major tech companies are doing AI development these days. "Everyone is doing AI. One A…

> While I'm not an Apple fanboy but I don't think it's Apple's fault that the ecosystem _they_ invested in became useful to them as well as their people.

It kind of is. They replaced the standard messaging app with a proprietary alternative, and then othered and ostracized users of non-Apple platforms who tried to use the standard.

> Argument such as "everyone uses phones..." don't seem very conductive to a fruitful discussion. For an example, similar case can be made for all AI tech (ChatGPT, Gemini etc) as all major tech companies are doing AI development these days.

How so? What similar case?

> "Everyone is doing AI. One AI organisation shouldn't be able to ostracize customers of every other AI organisation, punish them, and deliberately cripple the experience for its users."

How is OpenAI punishing people using alternatives to ChatGPT?

> The above is the same argument from a different perspective and is making a similar case as yours but for ChatGPT and Gemini. I hope that am I able to contrast the similarities sufficiently.

I don't see the example you gave as matching at all, but I look forward to your clarification. I'm not being sarcastic either, I know it sounds like I am.

Re: Apple responds to the Beeper iMessage saga: 'We took steps to protect our users'

#57

Post by sbuk »

lxgr wrote: post #48
nixgeek wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I give Apple a good amount of my personal money every year precisely because Apple works well with Apple, and because when you switch on all the features like Advanced Data Protection and Lockdown Mode their vertical integration across hardware, software and services gives them a strong security story. I have Signal and WhatsApp for talking to people on other platforms, and I’m personally fine with Apple maintaining…

Arguably, messaging life is somewhat miserable due to the existence of various closed systems that force people to install and use multiple messengers concurrently (outside of the US) or fall back to SMS (US). I, as a mostly happy Apple customer, would lose absolutely nothing and in fact gain quite a lot of convenience if Apple were to allow an Android iMessage client. Sure, running servers isn't free, nor is spam mo…

> "This really is exclusively about Apple's bottom line."

I'm unconvinced. Like I said further up the thread, the evidence to the contrary of the 'misery' of using other apps is abundant, especially given the standing of iMessage on the global scale.

Re: Apple responds to the Beeper iMessage saga: 'We took steps to protect our users'

#58

Post by PrimeMcFly »

sbuk wrote: post #55
PrimeMcFly wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fallacies.

There are five in the GPs post: - Strawman - Ad Hominem - False Dilemma - Hasty Generalization - Appeal to Emotion One more for free; Begging the Question...

> Strawman

He isn't arguing against a strawman, i.e. a misrepresented argument, he's saying the issue is not what OP claims and saying the issue is something else.

> Ad Hominem

He isn't using insults in place of an argument, he is including insults with his argument, so it's not an ad hominem.

> False Dilemma

He isn't falsely reducing the choices down to two or a few, he's just asking why Apple's customers don't act a certain way or have a problem with something.

> Hasty Generalization

What is it you think he is incorrectly generalizing to support his overall argument?

> Appeal to Emotion

He might be including emotional language, but he isn't relying on people feeling a particular way to agree with him at all. There is no appeal to emotion.

> One more for free; Begging the Question...

What question do you think he is ignoring/assuming to have been answered in making his claim?

Re: Apple responds to the Beeper iMessage saga: 'We took steps to protect our users'

#59

Post by sbuk »

PrimeMcFly wrote: post #56
shreyansh_k wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'm not an Apple fanboy but I don't think it's Apple's fault that the ecosystem _they_ invested in became useful to them as well as their people. Argument such as "everyone uses phones..." don't seem very conductive to a fruitful discussion. For an example, similar case can be made for all AI tech (ChatGPT, Gemini etc) as all major tech companies are doing AI development these days. "Everyone is doing AI. One A…

> While I'm not an Apple fanboy but I don't think it's Apple's fault that the ecosystem _they_ invested in became useful to them as well as their people. It kind of is. They replaced the standard messaging app with a proprietary alternative, and then othered and ostracized users of non-Apple platforms who tried to use the standard. > Argument such as "everyone uses phones..." don't seem very conductive to a fruitful…

> It kind of is. They replaced the standard messaging app with a proprietary alternative, and then othered and ostracized users of non-Apple platforms who tried to use the standard.

Nope. SMS and MMS were still present, and as they were at the time iMessage was introduced, the only global messaging standard. Apple has also commited to bring another standard to the platform in RCS. The notion that iMessage is a standard is wrong. It's an unpublished/private API. To call it a protocol would also be wrong.

Re: Apple responds to the Beeper iMessage saga: 'We took steps to protect our users'

#60

Post by PrimeMcFly »

sbuk wrote: post #59
PrimeMcFly wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While I'm not an Apple fanboy but I don't think it's Apple's fault that the ecosystem _they_ invested in became useful to them as well as their people. It kind of is. They replaced the standard messaging app with a proprietary alternative, and then othered and ostracized users of non-Apple platforms who tried to use the standard. > Argument such as "everyone uses phones..." don't seem very conductive to a fruitful…

> It kind of is. They replaced the standard messaging app with a proprietary alternative, and then othered and ostracized users of non-Apple platforms who tried to use the standard. Nope. SMS and MMS were still present, and as they were at the time iMessage was introduced, the only global messaging standard. Apple has also commited to bring another standard to the platform in RCS. The notion that iMessage is a standa…

> Nope.

Well, yeah.

> SMS and MMS were still present,

I never said otherwise. But they made iMessage the default and gave it priority.

> Apple has also commited to bring another standard to the platform in RCS.

Too little too late.

> The notion that iMessage is a standard is wrong.

In the US it's a de facto standard. People get punished if they use SMS/MMS/RCS.

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