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Fastmail Employees Form a Union

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Re: Fastmail Employees Form a Union

#281

So all of the comments I've seen so far are (predictably) armchair snark from both sides of the political spectrum. Perhaps the reason for this is that there is a very conspicuous lack of information here. For all we _actually_ know, this could be a fake account posting a fake announcement to a fake twitter. 1. Why did the Fastmail employees decide to form a union? Were the working conditions poor? Was the pay below…

I really cannot believe that in good faith you missed all the comments which are not snarks. It's the overwhelming majority...

[deleted]

Re: Fastmail Employees Form a Union

#282
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, you can be certain the big heads of companies are unionizing / conspiring against you (meeting behind closed doors to keep wages down, not poach, fix prices / rent, etc.). It's fascinating how the lower class has been indoctrinated against them.

I am anti-union, but not because of any indoctrination, but because when I was younger I worked in union shops before I got my first tech job and I saw how corrupt the union was, it was a complete racket, and it encouraged people to do mediocre work and mess around all day. In theory I support all the goals people say a union has, but in practice most unions are a way to protect slackers and incompetents while bilkin…

This doesn’t sound like a union issue this sounds like a company culture issue. I’ve worked in a company of slackers too and that’s usually the case when leadership doesn’t have defined deadlines or opportunities to work hard. Yes the majority are going to slack if the work place incentivizes it but I don’t see how that’s a reason to be against organizing around workers rights. There are entire divisions of Google for example that do nothing but churn out meaningless work and yet they are not unionized.

Re: Fastmail Employees Form a Union

#283
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you not seen the coordinated layoffs in tech the last 1.5 years? How is that not collective bargaining against tech talent? They all used every excuse they have: overhiring, wars, inflation (which they partially helped create) to flood the market TOGETHER, thereby reducing the price of our labor. All while racking in record profits. All that perfectly legal, all that a form of them collectively bargaining to low…

> How is that not collective bargaining against tech talent? Well you see, there are these things called interest rates which effect the cost of borrowing. And when those interest rates go up massively, like they did, this causes a completely predictable effect of it being more expensive to borrow and spend money. And this has economy wide effects, that are what bog standard macro economics predicts.

That doesn't jibe with reality. Tech companies are making record profits at the same time they're laying off workers by the thousands.

Companies have been using "macroeconomic" conditions as an excuse for increased prices and job cuts, but it doesn't hold up to the most basic scrutiny. Their profits have been increasing far beyond inflation. Whether it's FAANG or Big Egg[2], the fix is in.

Anyway, good on Fastmail employees. Makes this customer feel better about the company sticking to its principles.

1. https://www.allrecipes.com/new-ruling-in-egg-lawsuit-finds-e...

Re: Fastmail Employees Form a Union

#284
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First of all, the Phillips curve, really? That's a flawed boomer way to correlate inflation and employment Economics 101 always starts from the basics. It is indeed the case that all things about the economy can get more complicated. But, when starting out from the beginning, it is important to learn the baseline foundations before moving on to more complicated special cases. Kind of like how in physics they start…

> If you agree that companies aren't just all deciding together to have layoffs at once, and it is instead a complicated result of interest rates (feel free to say it is the result of the models that come after the Philips Curve!), then I am glad to have moved you on your position. The companies did all decide to have their layoffs at the same time frame, it's a fact, because that's what happened. You can claim they…

> You can claim they all acted in unison, because they all faced the same macroeconomic environment so they were bound to make the same decisions. And I agree

Ok part 1 solved! People did layoffs exactly as econ 101 predicts, because of interest rates increase. Glad I got you there.

Now on to part 2!

> Who made them overhire?

If interest rates being high, causes companies to do layoffs, well then we should also be able to figure out that interest rates being low (as well as injecting large amounts of money into the economy, like what literally happened), causes them to overhire.

Part 2 solved! Exactly as Econ 101 predicts.

Re: Fastmail Employees Form a Union

#285
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Downvote to disagree is a perfectly fine thing to do on HN and not a sign of anyone's depravity.

Down voting for disagreement is base behaviour. Of course nothing is stopping somebody from being base on HN, neither in real life. We've all met our fair share of rude and ignorant people. They're not going anywhere.

No, you're on a site whose norms include using votes to express agreement, with good reason (to avoid cluttering otherwise curious conversations with rote and superficial objections). You're stridently ignoring those norms. The arrow of rudeness isn't pointing the direction you think it is.

Re: Fastmail Employees Form a Union

#286
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assumes facts not in evidence. Also doesn't seem to reflect a clear grasp of what fiduciary duty is.

Fiduciary duty is the requirement that the managers of a company act only in the best interest of that company and its owners. It would be clearly against the interests of the company and the shareholders to allow the employees to unionize

No, fiduciary duty is broader and more subtle than that.

Your second statement is categorical enough to be silly. In some cases it is true, but if you think a bit on it you'll soon realized it's not hard to construct cases where it is false.

As for fiduciary duty, there are several aspects in this context, which applies to all of your D&O's not the CEO particularly (and less concretely so employees). One is a duty of care (you have to do the job properly). The aspect you are talking about boils down to a duty to act in the best interests of the corporation as you understand them as a professional. That means that you cannot act in the best interests of any stakeholder, third party, or yourself at the expense of the rest. You can't collude with the employees to screw over the shareholders, or the with the majority shareholder to screw over the others, or with your brothers company for a contract, etc. etc. etc. This is commonly mistunderstood to mean "maximize short term shareholder value", but that is not correct. Now as the CEO the board has the right to fire you if they can (majority) agree that they don't like the strategic or tactical direction you are going and you refuse to change tack, but none of that means you have failed a fiduciary duty. If you make a decision and can back it up with experience etc. in some way that other people in your position would likely agree with being a viable plan, you are not in breach of fiduciary duty.

There are a bunch of other things, e.g. disclosure & loyalty, good faith action, etc. but you are getting hung up on the one that is usually misunderstood as a narrow interest in the shareholders.

Re: Fastmail Employees Form a Union

#287
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you agree that companies aren't just all deciding together to have layoffs at once, and it is instead a complicated result of interest rates (feel free to say it is the result of the models that come after the Philips Curve!), then I am glad to have moved you on your position. The companies did all decide to have their layoffs at the same time frame, it's a fact, because that's what happened. You can claim they…

> You can claim they all acted in unison, because they all faced the same macroeconomic environment so they were bound to make the same decisions. And I agree Ok part 1 solved! People did layoffs exactly as econ 101 predicts, because of interest rates increase. Glad I got you there. Now on to part 2! > Who made them overhire? If interest rates being high, causes companies to do layoffs, well then we should also be ab…

Exactly my point! When Econ 101 enters the room, humanity and morality are gone. reduced to mere numbers on a spreadsheet.

The fact that you try to explain away some of the worst examples of human greed as the companies simply following the market shows that in your head following the market trends absolves one of any moral wrongdoings. While in reality, the companies you so staunchly defend suffer from the problem that their executives can make bets on the future without bearing the responsibilities of being wrong. That's the problem of not having your skin in the game (same as the cause of the 2008 financial crisis).

- Overgrow? Stock goes up, cause we are growing.

- Layoffs? Stock goes up, because we are streamlining.

Nowhere in that cycle is the CEO held accountable or is the company inspected on actually being profitable or a bonus good for society.

> Who made them overhire?

Right, low interest and borrowing rates COULD be a great incentive if one wants to grow their company, but that's not an imperative, you don't NEED to do that. You can use the money for other things: as R&D or as part of a war chest, or simply raise the salaries of your workers (lol), or simply not borrow at all. You know one company that didn't overhire during the pandemic? Apple. Were they stupid? Did they not know about the wonders of economy 101? No. They simply were staffed enough, and knew there are other ways to bring shareholders ROI rather than growing like a bloated cancer.

You know why the rest overhired? Because there were no repercussions for their executives if their bet went wrong. Money was basically free, so why not? Econ 101 says it's the right thing to do in the pre-2023 market where value of the company was determined by potential of growth, and not as it should: by the simple formula of revenue - expenses = profits. If their bet was wrong (and it was very wrong), nothing could go wrong for them. Why not have 3 rounds of layoffs after the overhiring, it's not like the executives are ever held responsible, and it really can bump up the stock price and leverage better negotiation position with those pesky expensive developers. And that, my friend, is why you need unions and heavy governmental oversight, to counteract that Econ 101 means all humanity out of the window.

- Econ 101 would simply lead you to the conclusion that if your US workers are too expensive, the right thing to do is to replace them with cheaper overseas workers, UNLESS there is regulation or union stopping you to do so

- Econ 101 will lead you to the conclusion that when your offshore support team can be replaced with a chatbot, you'd throw them under the bus within a second.

- Econ 101 will lead you to the conclusion that overhiring to increase market value for shareholders is the right thing to do, despite you having no clear plan what to do with those workers, nor projects to put them on. "They'll figure out the details later, let's grow for now. Stonks go upp"

- And when the balloon pops, econ 101 will lead you to the conclusion that it's time to cancel the visas and destroy the livelihoods of the same people they hired a year ago.

All this in the chase of the dollar! It's disgusting.

That's why we need far bigger government control over these companies, and stronger, multinational unions than we have now. Recently I've been very happy with the unions in the nordics sticking it to Tesla: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-.... That's more of what we need to do, because it's better for us, the workers.

Otherwise, left on their own within the invisible hands of the free marker (what a load of crap, conjured by a mentally limited, jealous, angry and totally inhuman Scotsman, no wonder economists are psychos), the megacorps will race themselves to the bottom and drag us with them.

Re: Fastmail Employees Form a Union

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Down voting for disagreement is base behaviour. Of course nothing is stopping somebody from being base on HN, neither in real life. We've all met our fair share of rude and ignorant people. They're not going anywhere.

No, you're on a site whose norms include using votes to express agreement, with good reason (to avoid cluttering otherwise curious conversations with rote and superficial objections). You're stridently ignoring those norms. The arrow of rudeness isn't pointing the direction you think it is.

Whatever norms doesn't change the fact that it is simple minded behavior to down vote somebody's opinion. That's the answer to the question he/she asked. Being base is the norm - online and offline. That doesn't mean I'm going to strive for that behavior.

Re: Fastmail Employees Form a Union

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you're on a site whose norms include using votes to express agreement, with good reason (to avoid cluttering otherwise curious conversations with rote and superficial objections). You're stridently ignoring those norms. The arrow of rudeness isn't pointing the direction you think it is.

Whatever norms doesn't change the fact that it is simple minded behavior to down vote somebody's opinion. That's the answer to the question he/she asked. Being base is the norm - online and offline. That doesn't mean I'm going to strive for that behavior.

If you don't understand the norms, you should take the time to learn about them before composing these diatribes. You're a guest at the party who's entered the living room and decided to start haranguing the furniture arrangement.

Re: Fastmail Employees Form a Union

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever norms doesn't change the fact that it is simple minded behavior to down vote somebody's opinion. That's the answer to the question he/she asked. Being base is the norm - online and offline. That doesn't mean I'm going to strive for that behavior.

If you don't understand the norms, you should take the time to learn about them before composing these diatribes. You're a guest at the party who's entered the living room and decided to start haranguing the furniture arrangement.

I was having a conversation with the other poster, in fact just answering their question. I am a guest, as everybody else here, just don't care much for base people.
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