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NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

phys.org

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Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#31

Post by notjoemama »

tshaddox wrote: post #8
superposeur wrote: post #6

This is intriguing and I’m very happy this exploration is being done. But, for decades, I’ve been reading reports of the discovery of evidence for the trappings of life elsewhere: water and organics and “habitable” exoplanets. These are valuable discoveries, but the tone of the reports suggest they imply life is about to turn up. It’s worth remembering that there is not one single shred of evidence that life has ever…

> It’s worth remembering that there is not one single shred of evidence that life has ever existed anywhere in the observable universe but Earth. I’m curious how your epistemology is working here. It seems to me that this will also be true in the future if we have found life on a hundred other planets. There still won’t be a shred of evidence of life anywhere else , and we still won’t have the faintest estimate of ho…

Using this same logic (in an ad absurdum context) we could also say you will never die because no one anywhere has any evidence that you have. That doesn’t falsify your statement, but using ad absurdum shows a statement is not true in every context. I tend to think that shows less conclusion and more investigation may be warranted. That’s how I think of it, but I could be off base and I’m open to being mostly if not entirely wrong.

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#32

Post by TheGRS »

superposeur wrote: post #6

This is intriguing and I’m very happy this exploration is being done. But, for decades, I’ve been reading reports of the discovery of evidence for the trappings of life elsewhere: water and organics and “habitable” exoplanets. These are valuable discoveries, but the tone of the reports suggest they imply life is about to turn up. It’s worth remembering that there is not one single shred of evidence that life has ever…

Sure, I don’t think that’s lost on anyone. The headline of “life found outside earth” is going to be a big deal.

But I also think we are zeroing in on the inevitable outcome. The math of probability and the simple components to life make it seem pretty likely we’ll get there unless there is something more fundamental that hasn’t been seen yet.

We haven’t reproduced proto-life yet, but we also don’t have millions of years and a planet sized laboratory at our disposal.

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#33

Post by mvdtnz »

tshaddox wrote: post #8
superposeur wrote: post #6

This is intriguing and I’m very happy this exploration is being done. But, for decades, I’ve been reading reports of the discovery of evidence for the trappings of life elsewhere: water and organics and “habitable” exoplanets. These are valuable discoveries, but the tone of the reports suggest they imply life is about to turn up. It’s worth remembering that there is not one single shred of evidence that life has ever…

> It’s worth remembering that there is not one single shred of evidence that life has ever existed anywhere in the observable universe but Earth. I’m curious how your epistemology is working here. It seems to me that this will also be true in the future if we have found life on a hundred other planets. There still won’t be a shred of evidence of life anywhere else , and we still won’t have the faintest estimate of ho…

The God of the gaps.

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#34

Post by sigzero »

superposeur wrote: post #6

This is intriguing and I’m very happy this exploration is being done. But, for decades, I’ve been reading reports of the discovery of evidence for the trappings of life elsewhere: water and organics and “habitable” exoplanets. These are valuable discoveries, but the tone of the reports suggest they imply life is about to turn up. It’s worth remembering that there is not one single shred of evidence that life has ever…

I happen to agree with you. I am in the "we are it" crowd but still agree with should explore.

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#35

Post by TeMPOraL »

intrasight wrote: post #5

I don't much like the spark and fire analogy with life. Not sure what analogy works. We don't yet really understand life well enough to have a good one.

What oxygen-breathing cells do is pretty much nanoscale combustion, so the analogy seems apt.

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#36

Post by superposeur »

spenczar5 wrote: post #28
superposeur wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If, in a volume of space, there are N exoplanets and 100 spontaneously created life, then I’d crudely estimate the probability of life at 100/N for a given exoplanet. Currently, we have only an upper limit on the probability and barely even that. All observations are consistent with a probability less that 10^-40, meaning it certainly wouldn’t happen a second time in the observable universe.

How many exoplanets would you say we have proven have no life? You imply 10^40 exoplanets are known to harbor no life. That is probably vastly more than the number of planets in the observable universe (something in the wide region of 10^20 to 10^25). Something like 5,000 exoplanets have even been discovered. We can’t cross off many of those as certainly lacking life.

I’m certainly not claiming the actual probability is 10^-40 , only using this as an example consistent with an upper limit, which probability would imply life has not arisen a second time in the observable universe. Actually this is way overkill — as you say, even if the probability is as high as 10^-25, life on Earth is still probably the only instance in observable universe. The point is that we have no idea what this all important parameter is.

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#37

Post by swingingFlyFish »

superposeur wrote: post #6

This is intriguing and I’m very happy this exploration is being done. But, for decades, I’ve been reading reports of the discovery of evidence for the trappings of life elsewhere: water and organics and “habitable” exoplanets. These are valuable discoveries, but the tone of the reports suggest they imply life is about to turn up. It’s worth remembering that there is not one single shred of evidence that life has ever…

"It’s worth remembering that there is not one single shred of evidence that life has ever existed anywhere in the observable universe but Earth"

Dude considering we're barely scratching the surface of the scratch on the scratch of the surface, I'd say this is really arrogant. We haven't found anything because our universe is a haystack and we're looking for the quark of a needle in that haystack. Perspective.

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#38

Post by robofanatic »

superposeur wrote: post #6

This is intriguing and I’m very happy this exploration is being done. But, for decades, I’ve been reading reports of the discovery of evidence for the trappings of life elsewhere: water and organics and “habitable” exoplanets. These are valuable discoveries, but the tone of the reports suggest they imply life is about to turn up. It’s worth remembering that there is not one single shred of evidence that life has ever…

But the other possibility that some intelligent super being created life on Earth is even bizarre. If that’s what you believe then who created that creator? You can go on and on, there is no end to this question. That very first creator must have come out from a “non living” thing.

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#39

Post by junofan »

superposeur wrote: post #19
ianai wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it’s actually possible to explore our solar system! We’ve been at it since the 70s!

Yes and I’m glad we’re doing it! No life or fossilized remains of life of any kind has yet been found.

Have we sent up any archeological tools for sample prep and whatnot? Can’t find what we don’t look for, no?

Re: NASA study finds life-sparking energy source and molecule at Enceladus

#40

Post by jahewson »

superposeur wrote: post #10
tshaddox wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s worth remembering that there is not one single shred of evidence that life has ever existed anywhere in the observable universe but Earth. I’m curious how your epistemology is working here. It seems to me that this will also be true in the future if we have found life on a hundred other planets. There still won’t be a shred of evidence of life anywhere else , and we still won’t have the faintest estimate of ho…

If, in a volume of space, there are N exoplanets and 100 spontaneously created life, then I’d crudely estimate the probability of life at 100/N for a given exoplanet. Currently, we have only an upper limit on the probability and barely even that. All observations are consistent with a probability less that 10^-40, meaning it certainly wouldn’t happen a second time in the observable universe.

You've not accounted for the tiny number of observations that we've made nor the limited power of our observations. We're not even sure if life existed on the planet literally next to us, let alone these exoplanets. Otherwise I could argue that all observations are consistent with a probability less than 10^-10 or 10^-20 or any other number I feel like.

Ask yourself this, from how many planets in the universe would you be able to observe life on Earth?

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