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Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

theguardian.com

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Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#121

Post by mrangle »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #104
mrangle wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Driving isn't negotiable, when living in the USA outside of the few major metros. Unless you've done it, you may not know what I mean. Most of the US is truly remote, even from the closest grocery store. Health doesn't play into the practical consideration of the way most of the country needs to traverse needed distances.

I've visited the U.S. a couple of times on holiday and even from that perspective, it's stunning just how many places are designed exclusively around the car. Even just walking from one shop to the next is awkward as they often have fences or hedges to separate them, so you have to walk from the shop, through the extensive car park, onto the main road that has no sidewalk and then into the next car park. But yes, you…

I take your point.

The US is wildly low-density outside of the major metros. It's one of the better things about this Nation.

Conversely, the very dense portions are built for cars and facilities are relatively close but still require a car to reach on the whole.

I live an a very dense major urban area, just outside of the city limits, and there isn't a single walkable store that isn't a convenience store with a gas station, a drug store, a rare butcher, a bar, a liquor store, a beer distributor, a tobacco store, a laundromat, and a pizza shop that serves bad food. And most of those aren't a short walk, though I need none of them aside from the butcher.

The grocery store and anything else absolutely requires a car. The trend isn't toward more such facilities, but less. Social (crime) and economic pressures are causing the food desert to expand. I know people who live 3/4 further away from me, across dense urbanity (which is a lot to travel, especially for older people), who need to travel to the suburban food store that I go to. There isn't space between it and them to build another grocery store. Less adaptable and more vulnerable stores have closed.

I agree that there is a limit to dense usability given any metric, but the dense areas are already designed. There isn't an option to redesign them as they represent vast expanses of residential homes. I don't see exurban areas filling in any time soon, especially given fuel / electric costs and economic pressures in addition to higher interest rates that will slow residential construction for the forseeable future. Also, they are truly vast.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#122

Post by Kirby64 »

faeranne wrote: post #83

Two years ago I spend nearly a month hunting for a decent electric vehicle. I had plenty of funds, and could theoretically afford a lower-end tesla. I was, at the time, driving a 2002 Honda Civic Hybrid, because to me, going electric makes sense. I was aware of the range limitations, and even had an agreement with my landlord to get a 220v outlet installed in the garage. I ultimately abandoned my endeavor because non…

This reads paranoid and hyperbolic.

I’m gonna need sources that you actually cannot repair an EV yourself. Parts sourcing may be difficult, and I’m sure there’s some certification you need as a mechanic to work on high voltage systems in some states, but the vast vast majority of work on EVs is boring normal stuff like brakes, fluids, etc. Nobody is getting thrown in jail for opening the hood on their own car, that’s ridiculous.

Also, nobody is bricking anyone’s car. If you’re that paranoid about remote access, it’s possible to just remove the cell access. It’s certainly possible on Tesla’s, it’s even an unlisted option when ordering.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#123

Post by relativ575 »

techterrier wrote: post #4

Just get rid of the damn cars.

Did you know that car ownership in the Netherlands, the country renown for its cycling culture, has been on the rise?

https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2020/10/car-fleet-growing-fast...

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#124

Post by browningstreet »

facialwipe wrote: post #116
browningstreet wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you been to the Netherlands?

No

Rains a lot. Pretty cold. Snows. Lots of bikes. But really nice biking infrastructure — of the kind that’s hard to imagine in places like North America.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#125

Post by marcusverus »

helij wrote: post #80
padjo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder do any of them realise they’re paying the maximum depreciation every single time too. Losing 20k+ in depreciation every year feels like a great way to stay poor

Our car was £40k new. We've been paying £400/month for 2.5 years now. It's a 4 year lease. We still owe £22k. They gave us £7k for our old car - that was the difference between how much we owed and how much previous car was worth. Now the latest one we can buy for around £18k once the lease is up I think. Currently I'm being offered £31k for it. So, rough calculation is that the car cost us £120/month in the last 2.5…

> if you take a look at the numbers above it's not that bad and we drive a new, safe, no issues (free servicing) car every 3-4 years.

Driving a new car every few years is incredibly decadent.

If you bought a car, paid it off in 5 years and drove it for another 10, you’d be saving thousands every year. Repeat that cycle every 15 years and invest the savings, and you’re talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars in trade-off costs over the course of a lifetime. That might be a reasonable trade-off for folks who are in great shape financially (I’ll certainly be doing it once retirement is funded!), but it’s pure foolishness for the average household.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#126

Post by hightrix »

Dalewyn wrote: post #7
palemoonale wrote: post #2

It is not only this. For me it is public greenwashing, that 'modern is always better' fallacy, subsidies (follow the money!), environmental impact of battery components, daily and seasonal inconveniences, even more SW instead of easily repairable mechanical parts, being forced by a vocal minority tru tax, social, and other penalties, etc. etc. Offer me an Hyuandai N74 and we'll talk.

As an aside since we're apparently bringing out the woodworks here, why is it that nearly all electric vehicles look like crap? Seriously, their designs are nearly all terrible compared to gas/diesel cars.

This is one of my biggest complaints. Many EVs look like they are EVs. I want an EV that looks like a car.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#127

Post by kiba »

mrangle wrote: post #101
kiba wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people live in urban areas. Even in suburban areas, the bicycle could be a viable form of transportation. My grocery store is literally under ten minutes away by bike, but it is essentially a nightmare to bike to because of a lack of safe cycling infrastructures.

Bicycling is a viable form of transportation, for short distances and recreation. However, it isn't an option for many if not most needs outside of the house even in suburbia. Not to mention the rural areas / exurbs. A Mom of a couple of kids can't transport her weekly food shop on a bike. Ignoring the inherent danger in getting to the store. I feel like this is a planning conversation for before the era when they de…

I am just saying that in my suburban context, a bike could make sense if there's proper bike infrastructure.

It would also make sense if there's a plan to reduce the amount of traffic because the road is used for through traffic both way which makes residents in the neighborhoods being forced to wait a long time before they're able to enter the road safely.

There's also a gas station much nearer, but it's not very easy to bike there. Walking there can get your shoes very muddy. There are also offices building nearby too, but once again, it's not very easy to get there on foot or bike.

This is all within my local suburban context, but it's not easy to do when large stroad make it difficult to cross relatively short distance, or when protected bike lanes and sidewalks are extremely lacking, or when crossing the road is a dangerous activity or when getting to your local gas station might get your shoes muddy and wet.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#128

Post by ath3nd »

zhrvoj wrote: post #53
whatevaa wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like internal combustion is any better at this.

Of course it isn't. I don't vote for internal combustion technology at all. Both are environmental problem. Looking at all the (ex) hype about electric cars, sometime it looks like electrics - they clean the environment... Internal combustion will stay for a long time in heavy machinery, sea and air transport, which is also problem, if not prevalent, so electric cars will bring negligible health improvement to planet…

Better do nothing, accept that we are gonna burn, and crank that gas up, right?

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#129

Post by bryanlarsen »

TheLoafOfBread wrote: post #107
bryanlarsen wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did a 3000km trip 4 times (twice each way) during the pandemic. Charging added 15 minutes to the trip. Everybody has to eat/sleep/bathroom, and that can happen at the same time as charging.

I did trip from London, UK to Southern Italy, Brindisi in Enyaq. By Google maps it should take 2 days (24 hours of driving, so 12 hours in 2 drivers/day). Charging dragged it on 4 days and we were charging on Ionity/Enel. So your 15 minutes is some kind of a sick joke.

That's ridiculous. My trip was from Ottawa Canada to Saskatoon. It goes through some seriously unpopulated territory, unlike yours. It does follow major highways, so there are Tesla superchargers along the route every 100-150 km or so. We'd stay at a hotel with charging overnight so start at 100%, drive for 2.5 hours and then bathroom/charge for 15-20 mins, drive another 2.5 and eat/charge for 40 or so, repeat the morning pattern in the afternoon, and then drive for another couple after supper before stopping at a hotel to charge while sleeping.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#130

Post by fnordpiglet »

d1sxeyes wrote: post #6

Answer: yes. The article concedes that TCO over the lifetime of the vehicle is only just at parity with the middle of the petrol car range, the upfront cost is higher, insurance costs tend to be higher, and on top of that you have “range anxiety” to worry about. There are certainly pros to electric cars, but as yet price is not one.

The crucial aspect here is “yet.” Most car makers are on their very first foray into EV, but have been perfecting efficiencies in ICE for many decades. The summary judgement articles and whatnot declaring EV dead on arrival ignore that ICE marginal improvements are slow and expensive, while EV marginal improvements are fast and cheap. How long until EV are cheaper and more reliable? I’ll wager in the span of 5 years. Then over the equivalent span of ICE dominance EV will continue to improve to a platform that will make ICE look like horse buggies.
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