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Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

theguardian.com

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Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#21

Post by whatevaa »

mg wrote: post #8

This reminds me of the discussions some years ago whether one should invest in an SSD when buying a new laptop or stay with a spinning disk. Nowadays, barely any new laptops are released without an SSD. When it comes to electric versus petrol, I often think about the fact that the sun sends more energy to earth in an hour than all of mankind uses in a year. I guess that in theory, all that energy could be captured wi…

SSD only became mainstream after 3D TLC was invented, bringing costs down. Planar MLC was okay but was still somewhat expensive, tech enthusiast thingy.

So for petrol, sure, if we just had as energy dense batterry as fossile fuels.

No, current tech is not there yet. The big range vechiles are stupidly expensive, and the inexpensive ones are daily commuters only, mostly. They also charge slowly. Most people don't own multiple vechiles for different purposes, the primary purpose of personal vechile is utility and mobility. People get stuck in their personal bubbles and forget that for most people cars are actually a tool.

For batteries, big range drops in winter, no solution for people living in apartments with no capability to "charge at home", high electricity prices at not "charge at home" places.

Please don't bring in hydrogen here :) it's Toyota's pipe dream, not reallity. We really need 3D NAND flash of SSD moment for batteries, that would revolutionize a lot of industries, not just personal vechiles.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#22

Post by br3d »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #17
edent wrote: post #14

In the UK, most people don't pay the "sticker" cost for a car. They take out a PCP or similar plan. Pay £X00 per month for Y months. At the end of the period, either buy the vehicle outright or hand it back. Or, as many people do, switch to a new vehicle. That's why you see so many expensive cars driven by people who can't afford them. No one is paying the up-front cost. They splurge their disposable income on a moto…

>> That's why you see so many expensive cars driven by people who can't afford them How is it possible to keep possession of the car if you’re not paying the contractual obligation? Is there some exception for cars? For example, failing to keep up with mortgage payments will eventually see you lose the property.

OP meant "can't afford them" in the sense of "couldn't afford the full price of". There are lots of people here in the UK on medium incomes driving around in £80,000 cars using this finance

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#23

Post by speedgoose »

tfrutuoso wrote: post #9

Yes? Not only that, most of them look terrible and the driving technique has to change dramatically to get any half decent range. It's a lot less engaging to daily an EV.

If you accelerate as slow as a median ICE car, the range shouldn’t be too bad. If you find it difficult not to press the accelerator pedal too hard, you can always use eco mode, chill mode, or Toyota mode, whatever it is called.

I find daily an EV much nicer as the driving is more silent, more smooth, the car is warmer faster, you don’t need to go to the oil and gas station once a while if you can charge at home or at work.

And the torque curve and the response time are so much better than all the car enthousiastes ICE cars in a similar price range.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#24

Post by Dalewyn »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #17
edent wrote: post #14

In the UK, most people don't pay the "sticker" cost for a car. They take out a PCP or similar plan. Pay £X00 per month for Y months. At the end of the period, either buy the vehicle outright or hand it back. Or, as many people do, switch to a new vehicle. That's why you see so many expensive cars driven by people who can't afford them. No one is paying the up-front cost. They splurge their disposable income on a moto…

>> That's why you see so many expensive cars driven by people who can't afford them How is it possible to keep possession of the car if you’re not paying the contractual obligation? Is there some exception for cars? For example, failing to keep up with mortgage payments will eventually see you lose the property.

I think what parent is saying is people lease or finance cars so they can drive cars they wouldn't be able to afford in full. That is, those people can afford the monthly payments but cannot afford paying the sticker price.

An easier to understand example would be how most people finance iPhones with their carrier. Most people balk at paying one or two grand for a phone, but don't mind paying ~$50 per month. At the end of the loan when they pay off the balance, or maybe even before that if the carrier offers, they upgrade to the next new iPhone.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#26

Post by smellf »

kiba wrote: post #15
mg wrote: post #8

This reminds me of the discussions some years ago whether one should invest in an SSD when buying a new laptop or stay with a spinning disk. Nowadays, barely any new laptops are released without an SSD. When it comes to electric versus petrol, I often think about the fact that the sun sends more energy to earth in an hour than all of mankind uses in a year. I guess that in theory, all that energy could be captured wi…

Does that mean mankind has to grow its energy usage 24 times to match the energy absorbed by the Earth?

24 * 365 times

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#27

Post by whatevaa »

raphaelj wrote: post #11

"Politicians in Europe know they will eventually have to impose taxes on electricity (or else raise income taxes)" I heard that a lot, but are we sure about this? Petrol in Europe is taxed at about 50%, but is almost exclusively imported, thus this is the only income for gouvernements. Electricity, on the other side, is also taxed (about 25% here in Belgium). But's it's almost entirely produced in the Union, which cr…

Petrol taxes include road tax in a lot of places, that will have to be replaced somehow once the share of electric cars becomes big enough.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#28

Post by mg »

kiba wrote: post #15
mg wrote: post #8

This reminds me of the discussions some years ago whether one should invest in an SSD when buying a new laptop or stay with a spinning disk. Nowadays, barely any new laptops are released without an SSD. When it comes to electric versus petrol, I often think about the fact that the sun sends more energy to earth in an hour than all of mankind uses in a year. I guess that in theory, all that energy could be captured wi…

Does that mean mankind has to grow its energy usage 24 times to match the energy absorbed by the Earth?

Thinking about energy usage always puzzles me.

I'm not even sure if driving a car from one city to another really uses energy.

For example, let's look at it this way: The energy from the sun is heating earth. When we use some of it to drive a solar-powered electric car from one city to another, does that lower the temperature of planet earth? I would think it does not. So why did we get the energy to drive the car for free? I would think that the surprising answer is: Moving something from A to B does not use energy at all. But I'm not sure.

Re: Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol vehicles?

#29

Post by whatevaa »

zhrvoj wrote: post #13

Beside all of that, if you convert let's say 1/10 of cars with internal combustion engines to electric motor cars, there is no electricity to charge them. Which also leads to envirnonmental problems - creating so much electricity (+ CO2 emmision from thermal-electric plants). Just count average low electric car consumption 15kWh/100km.

Like internal combustion is any better at this.
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