Question, do individual merit pay increases or bonuses exist in unionized software shops?
Fastmail Employees Form a Union
181–190 of 303 posts
Re: Fastmail Employees Form a Union
#182Earlier quoted context omitted.
I struggle to imagine a scenario where employees would unionize despite already feeling like they are treated fairly. The union/employer relationship is inherently hostile. The whole idea is that unionized employees can threaten production/profits as negotiation leverage. Choosing that path means the employees have already given up on cooperation based on goodwill. It must take a very sour relationship to reach that…
> The union/employer relationship is inherently hostile. Definitely not how it works in Europe. Unions make it easier for companies to have predictable relationships with their workers, and sector-wide unions mean that a company doesn't have to worry about a labor agreement putting it at a competitive disadvantage.
Right, Unions work differently in different countries. Unions in the US spread the management is always evil message, and treats all negations as a hostile encounter. As a result many of us in the US have a bad impression of unions. However in Europe they tend to be less hostile and so make more sense both for the company and the workers. Different contexts mean different results from what looks like the same thing.
Re: Fastmail Employees Form a Union
#183Earlier quoted context omitted.
I struggle to imagine a scenario where employees would unionize despite already feeling like they are treated fairly. The union/employer relationship is inherently hostile. The whole idea is that unionized employees can threaten production/profits as negotiation leverage. Choosing that path means the employees have already given up on cooperation based on goodwill. It must take a very sour relationship to reach that…
You struggle to imagine anyone understanding current fair treatment does not guarantee future fair treatment?
Unions also mistreat their members at times. That isn't to say unions are bad, but they are not a perfect answer and you need to watch the union.
Re: Fastmail Employees Form a Union
#184Earlier quoted context omitted.
Long story very short, history. Unions in the US are organized shop by shop. You can go to a union's homepage and click "JOIN TODAY!" if you wish. It just doesn't create any obligation for your employer to care.
That's how unions work by default everywhere else too. It's just more common for entire industries to be unionized (through momentum, not outright obligation) outside the US.
> That's how unions work by default everywhere else too.
Not true for Norway, at least.
Re: Fastmail Employees Form a Union
#185Earlier quoted context omitted.
I struggle to imagine a scenario where employees would unionize despite already feeling like they are treated fairly. The union/employer relationship is inherently hostile. The whole idea is that unionized employees can threaten production/profits as negotiation leverage. Choosing that path means the employees have already given up on cooperation based on goodwill. It must take a very sour relationship to reach that…
The relationship you're describing is balanced, as opposed to non-unionized employment, where management can threaten employment and healthcare as negotiation leverage and employees can't threaten anything.
One more reason health care should not be employer subsidized. You want insurance (and you should), go buy it: same as you get car and house/apartment insurance.
Re: Fastmail Employees Form a Union
#186Unions are fascinating to me. When you are in a Union, part of your money goes to the union in order to, hopefully, make things better for you. This means the relationship between Union leadership and the Union members is just as important as between Union leadership and the company. Historically, we have seen Unions bring things like worker safety to the forefront and do numerous things to help people out. More rece…
While I'm pro-union in general, not all unions are equal. Some are powerful. Some are weak. Back in the 1990s I worked part-time for a unionized grocery store chain and was a member of the UFCW. There were four contract negotiations while I was there, and each time the union rolled over and approved pay cuts, decreasing the top pay rate and slashing insurance benefits. Long-time workers saw their pay cut from $11.11…
I totally get your perspective given your experience. There are unions with bad leadership, but think those generally come about by a disengage union membership. As a member you and your coworkers ARE the union and have the power to affect what it does and who its leadership is.
Several unions have gone through democratic reforms in the last few years to make their leadership directly elected and accountable to the rank and file members. The Teamsters and UAW being to examples, and it turned them from weak company unions into powerful advocates for their members.
Unions are groups of people, just like all other organizations.
Re: Fastmail Employees Form a Union
#187Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a Fastmail customer (and software developer who is unfamiliar with how unions would/will work in this space), why would I not already be concerned? My first impression is "man, they must not be treating their employees that well if they decided they needed to bring in a third party to help them negotiate." However - I'm not well versed in this area and willing to learn - why is this a 'good' sign?
The decision to unionize isn't about a "third party." It's a decision to negotiate collectively versus individually. Collectively you have more bargaining power, it's a pretty straightforward and obvious calculation.
That is also why you might not want to join a union. If you can show you are better than someone else (or at least think you can show), the union is likely to force you to get the same pay anyway. Unions often have promotion rules that harm anyone seeking to move up. Of course if you are content this doesn't matter.
Which is why unions work well for assembly line workers: the line moves at the speed of the slowest person on the line, so there is no way to be better than average. (the company/union can fire someone enough slower than average)
Re: Fastmail Employees Form a Union
#188I am a software engineer who used to work in a "unionized" workplace. It was quite nice, and the union would negotiate increases in time off and fight against policy changes that were worse for us. The union leaders were elected every few years (very important IMO) and the union was only within the (rather large) company; there was no affiliation with a larger union.
Which country were you in at the time? Union laws vary substantially by country so I think this is relevant to understanding different unions and people's experiences with them.
Yeah, I have the choice of about 3 unions where I work, all of which are big unions because there can only be one per industry in Australia. All three have wasted way too much time and members' money on vanity projects that I don't want to join.
Re: Fastmail Employees Form a Union
#189Wasn't Fastmail bought from Opera by its employees[0]? I don't get it - they're forming a union to negotiate with themselves? [0] https://www.fastmail.com/blog/exciting-news-fastmail-staff-p...
It was bought by the core employees here in Melbourne, I don't think the employees in the US have any kind of stake in it
Re: Fastmail Employees Form a Union
#190Question, do individual merit pay increases or bonuses exist in unionized software shops?
A bonus can exist. The contract has to allow them.
Generally individual merit pay isn't allowed though which is why so many in tech are against unions: we believe that some people are better than others and thus worth more.