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Re: undefined

#41

Post by selfmodruntime »

foldr wrote: post #31
selfmodruntime wrote: post #21

You absolutely can be phobic (read: afraid) towards certain cultures and religious values. It is not a secret that people from abrahamic countries more often get their - conservative - values from religion than people in the west nowadays do. As a bisexual man who has a lot of connections / friends in the gay community, we are afraid and for good reason. People like me suffer from violence every day in the middle eas…

For another perspective on this, as a Eurpoean (well, British) gay man who lives in a neighborhood with lots of Muslim immigrants in it, I am much more concerned with threats to LGBT rights coming from domestic right-wing political sources. As the sibling comment points out, the idea that immigrants or refugees are to blame for recent rises in hate crime is more reflective of how skillfully the right plays minority g…

I really do not like to do this on HN, but you‘re either outright lying or living in a privileged living situation near educated muslims who are already beginning to assimilate. I figure you are living in the US, where stringent immigration laws protect you.

Europe is suffering from mass immigration of people with - in our opinion - close to extremist values. A conservative German who dislikes gay people is much less threatening.

Gay and trans people are even more of a minority than muslims, and only one party is actively threatening the other.

My institution offers protection of ex-muslim women and gay people. Their stories are harrowing. And these people have lived in Germany for generations.

Re: undefined

#42

Post by selfmodruntime »

082349872349872 wrote: post #30
selfmodruntime wrote: post #21

You absolutely can be phobic (read: afraid) towards certain cultures and religious values. It is not a secret that people from abrahamic countries more often get their - conservative - values from religion than people in the west nowadays do. As a bisexual man who has a lot of connections / friends in the gay community, we are afraid and for good reason. People like me suffer from violence every day in the middle eas…

> Attacks on gay people are on the rise By Ausländer or by AfD-or-further types? https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/30252.jpeg

Nice infographic, but it‘s no secret that we‘re counting radical attacks by people who also - by complete chance I wonder? - happen to be muslim as „rechte angriffe“ as well.

Re: undefined

#43

Post by foldr »

selfmodruntime wrote: post #41
foldr wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For another perspective on this, as a Eurpoean (well, British) gay man who lives in a neighborhood with lots of Muslim immigrants in it, I am much more concerned with threats to LGBT rights coming from domestic right-wing political sources. As the sibling comment points out, the idea that immigrants or refugees are to blame for recent rises in hate crime is more reflective of how skillfully the right plays minority g…

I really do not like to do this on HN, but you‘re either outright lying or living in a privileged living situation near educated muslims who are already beginning to assimilate. I figure you are living in the US, where stringent immigration laws protect you. Europe is suffering from mass immigration of people with - in our opinion - close to extremist values. A conservative German who dislikes gay people is much less…

>I figure you are living in the US, where stringent immigration laws protect you.

I'm living in the UK. (I thought this was obvious from my post; I'm not sure why you would jump to the conclusion that I'm living in the US.)

Homophobia within Muslim communities is certainly a serious problem for gay muslims. However, as I said elsewhere in this thread, you only have to look at the European countries where LGBT rights are actually under serious threat to see that Muslim immigrants are not the primary problem. Orbán agrees with you about Muslims – but how's he doing on gay rights?

You are willing to accuse me of lying and to jump to jump to bizarre conclusions about my living circumstances. I won't do you the same discourtesy, but it is always disappointing to see LGBT people using LGBT rights as a smokescreen for xenophobia and other prejudices. This only aids and abets people on the far right who couldn't give two hoots about our rights, but who are only too happy to opportunistically capture the votes of useful idiots within the gay community.

Re: undefined

#44

Post by lazyeye »

082349872349872 wrote: post #28
lazyeye wrote: post #27

Only in the West is valuing (and wanting to protect) your own culture now seen as extremist and hateful. For everyone else and pretty much all of human history it is and was the norm.

How does xenophobia either value or protect the West's own post-parochial culture?

The idea that valuing your own culture is "parochial" and bigoted, exactly encapsulates the point I was making.

Re: undefined

#45

Post by 082349872349872 »

lazyeye wrote: post #44
082349872349872 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does xenophobia either value or protect the West's own post-parochial culture?

The idea that valuing your own culture is "parochial" and bigoted, exactly encapsulates the point I was making.

It is possible, even easy, to value your own culture without being afraid of strangers. It's the latter, not the former, that constitutes at best xenophobia, and at worst bigotry.

What would make doing one without the other difficult?

Re: undefined

#46

Post by coldtea »

pasabagi wrote: post #36
ta_vf7xjd34cc wrote: post #2

There is an anecdote that is often used in India about how the Parsis (Zoroastrians who escaped the Islamic conquest of Persia) came to India and assimilated into the society. When a group of Parsis landed in Gujarat (Western India), the local chieftain posed a question to the leader of the group in the form of a glass of milk. The leader responded by adding a spoon of sugar to the glass and stirring the contents. Th…

Calling the European conquest of the Americas 'immigration' is kind of like calling operation Barbarossa 'tourism'. I also think the anecdote is kind of ridiculous. There was no India when the Parsis arrived. There was no India for a millennia after the Parsis arrived . The whole concept of assimilation to 'Indian culture' is even more ridiculous than it is to vastly more uniform (and vastly smaller) european culture…

>Especially if you are going to backproject India (a country founded in 1947) to 700 ad.

Ah, the idea that a nation couldn't possibly exist until it got modern statehood (as opposed to being "a country founded in 1947") or is just a perfectly homogeneous blob (as opposed to "composed of hundreds of distinct cultures".)

Sorry, but neither are requirements for there to have been an India - or China, or any other such examples, for millenia. They first is just the modern form of statehood that emerged after the era of nationalist.

India was a nation way before 1947 and before the brits got the fuck out. And I'd argue was also a country, just one under occupation, as opposed to a sovereign one with externally recognized statehood status.

So there's that.

And if "the European conquest of the Americas" isn't exactly immigration, the European settlements in the country we now call US were called and described as exactly that, of innocent "pilgrims" and "persecuted minorities" too. Still they didn't do the native "indian" populations any favor.

Re: undefined

#47

Post by coldtea »

aegypti wrote: post #4
ta_vf7xjd34cc wrote: post #2

There is an anecdote that is often used in India about how the Parsis (Zoroastrians who escaped the Islamic conquest of Persia) came to India and assimilated into the society. When a group of Parsis landed in Gujarat (Western India), the local chieftain posed a question to the leader of the group in the form of a glass of milk. The leader responded by adding a spoon of sugar to the glass and stirring the contents. Th…

30,000 years worth of missing genetic immunity to essentially every disease imaginable wiped out native populations in the Americas and precipitated the collapse of civilizations there, actually.

Funny how the millions directly enslaved and slaughtered didn't matter.
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