Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Untitled topic

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 47 posts

Re: undefined

#31

Post by foldr »

selfmodruntime wrote: post #21

You absolutely can be phobic (read: afraid) towards certain cultures and religious values. It is not a secret that people from abrahamic countries more often get their - conservative - values from religion than people in the west nowadays do. As a bisexual man who has a lot of connections / friends in the gay community, we are afraid and for good reason. People like me suffer from violence every day in the middle eas…

For another perspective on this, as a Eurpoean (well, British) gay man who lives in a neighborhood with lots of Muslim immigrants in it, I am much more concerned with threats to LGBT rights coming from domestic right-wing political sources.

As the sibling comment points out, the idea that immigrants or refugees are to blame for recent rises in hate crime is more reflective of how skillfully the right plays minority groups off against each other than it is of any facts on the ground. They love it when gays are more worried about 'foreign' Muslim immigrants than they are about the domestic politicians who are actually gearing up to pass anti-LGBT legislation.

Re: undefined

#32

Post by richbell »

foldr wrote: post #31
selfmodruntime wrote: post #21

You absolutely can be phobic (read: afraid) towards certain cultures and religious values. It is not a secret that people from abrahamic countries more often get their - conservative - values from religion than people in the west nowadays do. As a bisexual man who has a lot of connections / friends in the gay community, we are afraid and for good reason. People like me suffer from violence every day in the middle eas…

For another perspective on this, as a Eurpoean (well, British) gay man who lives in a neighborhood with lots of Muslim immigrants in it, I am much more concerned with threats to LGBT rights coming from domestic right-wing political sources. As the sibling comment points out, the idea that immigrants or refugees are to blame for recent rises in hate crime is more reflective of how skillfully the right plays minority g…

> As the sister post points out, the idea that immigrants or refugees are to blame for recent rises in hate crime is more reflective of how skillfully the right plays minority groups off against each other than it is of any facts on the ground.

This is a strange argument to make. There are nearly 2 billion Muslims worldwide, they are not a minority.

In Canada, Muslims are some of the loudest voices against LGBT rights and representation. Another example in the states: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/202...

Re: undefined

#33

Post by foldr »

richbell wrote: post #32
foldr wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For another perspective on this, as a Eurpoean (well, British) gay man who lives in a neighborhood with lots of Muslim immigrants in it, I am much more concerned with threats to LGBT rights coming from domestic right-wing political sources. As the sibling comment points out, the idea that immigrants or refugees are to blame for recent rises in hate crime is more reflective of how skillfully the right plays minority g…

> As the sister post points out, the idea that immigrants or refugees are to blame for recent rises in hate crime is more reflective of how skillfully the right plays minority groups off against each other than it is of any facts on the ground. This is a strange argument to make. There are nearly 2 billion Muslims worldwide, they are not a minority. In Canada, Muslims are some of the loudest voices against LGBT right…

Muslims are a minority in Germany, the UK, and most European countries. Surely it's obvious from the context that this is what I'm referring to.

Getting the dafter elements of the Muslim community worked up about trans people is approximately as easy as getting the dafter elements of the gay community worked up about Muslims. The right is very good at stirring this particular pot. I personally have no doubt where the real threat to my rights comes from.

Re: undefined

#34

Post by richbell »

foldr wrote: post #33
richbell wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As the sister post points out, the idea that immigrants or refugees are to blame for recent rises in hate crime is more reflective of how skillfully the right plays minority groups off against each other than it is of any facts on the ground. This is a strange argument to make. There are nearly 2 billion Muslims worldwide, they are not a minority. In Canada, Muslims are some of the loudest voices against LGBT right…

Muslims are a minority in Germany, the UK, and most European countries. Surely it's obvious from the context that this is what I'm referring to. Getting the dafter elements of the Muslim community worked up about trans people is approximately as easy as getting the dafter elements of the gay community worked up about Muslims. The right is very good at stirring this particular pot. I personally have no doubt where the…

> Muslims are a minority in Germany, the UK, and most European countries. Surely it's obvious from the context that this is what I'm referring to

Regardless, it is misleading to cast them as a minority group in the same way as the LGBT population. They have global solidarity and power.

> I personally have no doubt where the real threat to my rights comes from.

It's not mutually exclusive. Radical elements from the Muslim community have long since propagated such beliefs, it's bizarre to act as if "the right stirring the pot" is the only reason such beliefs exist.

Of course, there are many peaceful and tolerant Muslims. I personally know several people who moved to western countries to escape the radical elements of their home country. Those same radical elements are now (~10-15 years) immigrating and bringing their beliefs with them.

Re: undefined

#35

Post by foldr »

richbell wrote: post #34
foldr wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Muslims are a minority in Germany, the UK, and most European countries. Surely it's obvious from the context that this is what I'm referring to. Getting the dafter elements of the Muslim community worked up about trans people is approximately as easy as getting the dafter elements of the gay community worked up about Muslims. The right is very good at stirring this particular pot. I personally have no doubt where the…

> Muslims are a minority in Germany, the UK, and most European countries. Surely it's obvious from the context that this is what I'm referring to Regardless, it is misleading to cast them as a minority group in the same way as the LGBT population. They have global solidarity and power. > I personally have no doubt where the real threat to my rights comes from. It's not mutually exclusive. Radical elements from the Mu…

I think you understand perfectly how Muslims are a minority group in the context of a conversation about European xenophobia. But you could delete the word ‘minority’ from my original post and it would still make the same point, so I am not sure why you keep picking at this detail.

>it's bizarre to act as if "the right stirring the pot" is the only reason such beliefs exist.

It would be bizarre, but I didn’t say this. There are individual people who are bigoted, which is bad, and then there are people who are making strategic use of bigotry to achieve political ends. At least in the UK, where I have the most knowledge, the current threat to LGBT rights (currently centered on various pieces of anti-trans legislation) has nothing to do with Muslims.

What if we look more broadly at the European countries that have actually seen major regressions in LGBT rights? Poland and Hungary are the obvious examples. Are Muslims to blame here? On the contrary, we see that the very countries that are most hostile to immigration and religious diversity are also (surprise surprise!) hostile to gay people.

On the one hand, then, we have a largely imaginary threat to LGBT rights coming from a supposed invasion of Muslim extremists, and on the other, a real threat stemming from a long and thoroughly ‘indigenous’ European far-right tradition.

Re: undefined

#36

Post by pasabagi »

ta_vf7xjd34cc wrote: post #2

There is an anecdote that is often used in India about how the Parsis (Zoroastrians who escaped the Islamic conquest of Persia) came to India and assimilated into the society. When a group of Parsis landed in Gujarat (Western India), the local chieftain posed a question to the leader of the group in the form of a glass of milk. The leader responded by adding a spoon of sugar to the glass and stirring the contents. Th…

Calling the European conquest of the Americas 'immigration' is kind of like calling operation Barbarossa 'tourism'.

I also think the anecdote is kind of ridiculous. There was no India when the Parsis arrived. There was no India for a millennia after the Parsis arrived. The whole concept of assimilation to 'Indian culture' is even more ridiculous than it is to vastly more uniform (and vastly smaller) european cultures, because India, to its credit, is composed of hundreds of distinct cultures. Especially if you are going to backproject India (a country founded in 1947) to 700 ad.

Re: undefined

#37

Post by snyedd »

foldr wrote: post #35
richbell wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Muslims are a minority in Germany, the UK, and most European countries. Surely it's obvious from the context that this is what I'm referring to Regardless, it is misleading to cast them as a minority group in the same way as the LGBT population. They have global solidarity and power. > I personally have no doubt where the real threat to my rights comes from. It's not mutually exclusive. Radical elements from the Mu…

I think you understand perfectly how Muslims are a minority group in the context of a conversation about European xenophobia. But you could delete the word ‘minority’ from my original post and it would still make the same point, so I am not sure why you keep picking at this detail. >it's bizarre to act as if "the right stirring the pot" is the only reason such beliefs exist. It would be bizarre, but I didn’t say this…

> At least in the UK, where I have the most knowledge, the current threat to LGBT rights (currently cantered on various pieces of anti-trans legislation)

It's pro-women legislation that is being proposed. Specifically, legislation to keep men who pretend to be women out of female-only spaces. This actually is of benefit to the LGB, lesbians in particular.

If that is "anti-trans" then it just illustrates how so-called "trans rights" are an encroachment on women's rights.

Re: undefined

#38

Post by foldr »

snyedd wrote: post #37
foldr wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you understand perfectly how Muslims are a minority group in the context of a conversation about European xenophobia. But you could delete the word ‘minority’ from my original post and it would still make the same point, so I am not sure why you keep picking at this detail. >it's bizarre to act as if "the right stirring the pot" is the only reason such beliefs exist. It would be bizarre, but I didn’t say this…

> At least in the UK, where I have the most knowledge, the current threat to LGBT rights (currently cantered on various pieces of anti-trans legislation) It's pro-women legislation that is being proposed. Specifically, legislation to keep men who pretend to be women out of female-only spaces. This actually is of benefit to the LGB, lesbians in particular. If that is "anti-trans" then it just illustrates how so-called…

That is a separate debate. The point is that it's the kind of legislation that would also be supported by conservative Muslims and conservative religious people in general. If you think that trans women are 'men who pretend to be women' then you probably have relatively little to fear from a social agenda driven by recently-immigrated Muslim extremists, were such a thing to pass. Indeed, they would probably be useful allies.

Re: undefined

#39

Post by singleshot_ »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #10
aegypti wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30,000 years worth of missing genetic immunity to essentially every disease imaginable wiped out native populations in the Americas and precipitated the collapse of civilizations there, actually.

That's irrelevant. The point of the story, if you missed it, is that Europeans were not interested in adopting the Native American way of life and assimilating. Cortez didn't arrive in Mexico and swear loyalty to the local king, and adopt their religion

Another point of the story is that new populations are either going to assimilate (which could be great for the pre-existing population) or they aren’t going to assimilate (which could be pretty bad for the pre-existing population).

Re: undefined

#40

Post by snakeyjake »

ta_vf7xjd34cc wrote: post #2

There is an anecdote that is often used in India about how the Parsis (Zoroastrians who escaped the Islamic conquest of Persia) came to India and assimilated into the society. When a group of Parsis landed in Gujarat (Western India), the local chieftain posed a question to the leader of the group in the form of a glass of milk. The leader responded by adding a spoon of sugar to the glass and stirring the contents. Th…

>Europe is facing this kind of immigration, not the Parsis.

The US faced this about 200 years ago.

A bunch of dirty, disease-ridden, rapey, religious extremists started invading the US, fleeing from the hellhole country they came from and running amok in the US.

They threatened the very fabric of US society with their criminality and the insular nature of their culture which saw them clustering in tenements that were overrun by disease and crime.

Many, if not most, Americans considered the recently-freed slaves to be a nobler and harder working part of the human species and held their coin purses and daughters closely whenever an Irishman was spotted.

Is the same thing happening in Europe?

Post reply on HN