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Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

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Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#511

Post by 3minus1 »

unclekev wrote: post #102

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered sto…

> I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices.

maybe it's because the "underlying problem" they are trying to address is people contracting and dying from silicosis

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#512

Post by tedk-42 »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #469
tedk-42 wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm skeptical of the story. Husband wears asbestos ridden clothes all day, maybe wears PPE and what not, but we've tied it the cancer the wife has because of her exposure to the clothes while handling them in the wash? Even if the husband took off his clothes, separately bagged them and then handed them to his wife to clean, it's hard to see how his exposure is less to the point where only she was diagnosed.

This is going to sound absolutely crazy to you, but you are just going to have to trust me: Different people can have dramatically different reactions to identical things. Totally insane, right?

Given the article is from the law firm representing the client in the article, I 'm dumbfounded to see people jumping onboard in agreement and not drawing fair conclusions on causation.

Smoke usually means fire yes, but not always - could be someone heating oil on a pan.

I'm certainly on board with the belief asbestos increases likelihood of cancer. But so does driving through a dirty tunnel in peak hour traffic every day of your life. Quantifying which one were more likely to 'cause' your cancer is a not a straighforward thing.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#513

Post by Brian_K_White »

kortilla wrote: post #442
Brian_K_White wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Murder risk is negligible because we do things about it. My house has never burned down, therefor firemen, smoke alarms, and extinguishers are a scam. Got it.

No, murder risk is negligible not because you avoid going out, but because of law. You conflated the two.

I did? Where did I say anything about not going out?

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#514

Post by avar »

zaphirplane wrote: post #31

No arguing against the ban I have to say the alternatives from the article are significantly more expensive, not durable or silly (concrete) Anyone had luck with one of the alternatives * Natural stone * Porcelain * Laminate * Tiles * Concrete * Wood/Timber

The best alternative isn't even listed: stainless steel. There's a reason commercial kitchens prefer it.

It can also me cheaper, as you don't need a solid slab of it, a 1-3mm plate of stainless glued to MDF will do.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#515

Post by caf »

gnfargbl wrote: post #387
Hawxy wrote: post #169

It's very much worth reading the full reasoning within the SafeWork decision (page 56): https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/202... SafeWork's view is that the industry is too much of a non-compliant mess to recommend any other option apart from a complete ban.

The logic here is that if an industry can only be made safe with strict PPE standards, but the market dynamics make it difficult to ensure compliance with those standards, then it is OK to ban the industry. That seems a pretty concerning stance for small businesses. What's next? Ban microbreweries because they don't properly manage the risks of CO2 asphyxiation? Ban small-shop mechanics because they routinely get bra…

Industrial manslaughter laws are a fine incentive to correctly manage the risks of CO₂ asphyxiation, because it is immediately apparent when your worker has been asphyxiated and the proximal cause is readily determined.

Silicosis takes years to appear so the proximal link is too weak for post facto punishment to have much deterrent effect. It is much more like asbestos in this way, which can also be safely handled but has also been banned.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#516

Post by caf »

newaccount74 wrote: post #323
legitster wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The exposure to silica comes from cutting and grinding - and there is probably more exposure to cutting and grinding from natural stone (first at the quarry and second in production). I think the important distinction is that with natural stone, much more is cut to fit from the factory (which is easier to handle dust) vs cut on site.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that nobody tries to cut granite on site with an angle grinder. It's so difficult because the material is so hard. Granite countertops are typically cut off-site with a waterjet, which creates zero dust.

This I suspect nails the question of "why doesn't natural silica-containing stone cause the same problems?" asked several times elsethread.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#517

Post by caf »

eggy wrote: post #476

What about coal mining in Australia? Should they ban it too? It produces 80% of their electricity, and a low death rate from direct mining incidents, but a 26% increase in mortality compared to the general population most likely due to respiratory and stress-related issues.[0,1] CWP (Coal Miner's Pneumoconiosis) is the long-term risk vs. the mining accidents, and it involves silicosis too. The US and Australia have l…

In 2022, coal-fired electricity was 55.9% of the combined NEM and SWIS generation (and it is trending down).

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#518

Post by stephen_g »

tedk-42 wrote: post #512
Workaccount2 wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is going to sound absolutely crazy to you, but you are just going to have to trust me: Different people can have dramatically different reactions to identical things. Totally insane, right?

Given the article is from the law firm representing the client in the article, I 'm dumbfounded to see people jumping onboard in agreement and not drawing fair conclusions on causation. Smoke usually means fire yes, but not always - could be someone heating oil on a pan. I'm certainly on board with the belief asbestos increases likelihood of cancer. But so does driving through a dirty tunnel in peak hour traffic ever…

Asbestos can cause lung cancer, but also asbestosis and mesothelioma, for both of which the only known cause is asbestos exposure.

I’ve heard of a number of these cases of wives of construction workers contracting these asbestos related diseases, it’s a population that had a higher chance of contracting them (just like construction workers themselves exposed to asbestos, of which there were many in this country). As I understand it, none of this is disputed by any of the medical science, epidemiology or experts in those fields…

Since asbestos is still around in various (mostly old) materials, it is possible to have additional exposure unknowingly, but it’s quite rare to contract something like asbestosis or mesothelioma without known exposure.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#520

Post by linsomniac »

alvah wrote: post #496
linsomniac wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm struggling to figure out why it would seem so implausible. I got the phrasing from AvE on youtube, and I've said it to him several times during our DIYing together because I'm trying to educate him on using PPE.

You phrased it exactly like the many stories posted on social media that end with a young kid expressing virtue in the words of an adult. You have other skeptical replies, so it’s not just me.

I guess I should also have told the story about the time I had thrown together some quick tables for a yard sale and after the yard sale he decided they would make a great stage, and was showing off in front of his friend, standing on the table. He says "I am walking on the ta..." but gets cut off as the table collapses.

So not everything he says is wisdom beyond his years...

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