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Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

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Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#51

Post by reactordev »

cultureswitch wrote: post #9
BaculumMeumEst wrote: post #3

One thing that's very tricky about these kind of simplified visual explanations of fighting game mechanics is that you don't capture all the strategic implications of move properties. The visualizations make simple scenarios clear, for example if you block a sweep point blank (or whatever a highly punishable tekken equivalent would be, a snake edge or a hellsweep or whatever), then you are at advantage and can land a…

I think I follow the gist of what you're talking about and it doesn't sound all that advanced at all. Deliberately missing out getting blocked to make the opponent think they have an opening is not a particularly high level play in other games. It still baffles me that traditional 2D fighting games and Tekken in particular are so complex and that it is so hard to even pull off a specific move due to control schemes t…

Did you just compare Tekken to Mount & Blade Warband? Ummm, not even the same thing man. M&B does just basic collision detection, there’s no combos, counters, supers, throws, finishers… get out of here with that nonsense. I get what you are saying (simple systems craft complex experiences) but that’s not a good analogy. Use Mortal Kombat instead.

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#52

Post by jncfhnb »

irobeth wrote: post #35
jncfhnb wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm no they kind of do. The basic insight with most fighting games is that once you are competent you know everything that opponent can do and the list of viable options is discrete and small with fairly standard flowcharts. Tekken is a bit more nebulous than this.

> once you are competent you know everything that opponent can do This reads a little like saying "you are competent at chess when you know all the moves the pieces can make" In Chess, knowing your opponent's available moves might make the difference between an absolute beginner and a 300 rated player Knowing some opening theory might make the difference between 300 rating and 1000 rating But I don't know that I'd ca…

No, it’s not like chess. Chess has much more entropy. Moves are made one at a time. There’s much, much more stateful considerations to the game.

In fighting games only a handful of options are particularly relevant at any time. often times characters’ entire thing revolve around one move, like a fireball. It’s not to say that spamming fireball is a viable strategy, but all decisions need to be made in the context of remembering that they have a fireball more than anything.

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#53

Post by wavemode »

cultureswitch wrote: post #9
BaculumMeumEst wrote: post #3

One thing that's very tricky about these kind of simplified visual explanations of fighting game mechanics is that you don't capture all the strategic implications of move properties. The visualizations make simple scenarios clear, for example if you block a sweep point blank (or whatever a highly punishable tekken equivalent would be, a snake edge or a hellsweep or whatever), then you are at advantage and can land a…

I think I follow the gist of what you're talking about and it doesn't sound all that advanced at all. Deliberately missing out getting blocked to make the opponent think they have an opening is not a particularly high level play in other games. It still baffles me that traditional 2D fighting games and Tekken in particular are so complex and that it is so hard to even pull off a specific move due to control schemes t…

"I think I follow the gist of what you're talking about and it doesn't sound all that advanced at all" could probably go down as a copypasta, perfectly emblematic of someone speaking confidently and dismissively about something they've never done, seen, or even studied very closely.

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#54

Post by thaumasiotes »

scubbo wrote: post #49
ranting-moth wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Even worse when you can pay to get better, like MTG, or Magic The Money Gathering as I'd like to call it. Once someone in your group starts hunting down those rare (and expensive) cards, everyone else will have to do the same or give up playing.

Thankfully, printer ink (just about) remains cheaper than Magic cards.

You don't need printer ink. You can print them in grayscale, or cut some index cards to fit into sleeves and write the name of the card you want in pencil.

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#55

Post by [deleted] »

jncfhnb wrote: post #52
irobeth wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> once you are competent you know everything that opponent can do This reads a little like saying "you are competent at chess when you know all the moves the pieces can make" In Chess, knowing your opponent's available moves might make the difference between an absolute beginner and a 300 rated player Knowing some opening theory might make the difference between 300 rating and 1000 rating But I don't know that I'd ca…

No, it’s not like chess. Chess has much more entropy. Moves are made one at a time. There’s much, much more stateful considerations to the game. In fighting games only a handful of options are particularly relevant at any time. often times characters’ entire thing revolve around one move, like a fireball. It’s not to say that spamming fireball is a viable strategy, but all decisions need to be made in the context of…

[deleted]

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#56

Post by dmonitor »

jncfhnb wrote: post #52
irobeth wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> once you are competent you know everything that opponent can do This reads a little like saying "you are competent at chess when you know all the moves the pieces can make" In Chess, knowing your opponent's available moves might make the difference between an absolute beginner and a 300 rated player Knowing some opening theory might make the difference between 300 rating and 1000 rating But I don't know that I'd ca…

No, it’s not like chess. Chess has much more entropy. Moves are made one at a time. There’s much, much more stateful considerations to the game. In fighting games only a handful of options are particularly relevant at any time. often times characters’ entire thing revolve around one move, like a fireball. It’s not to say that spamming fireball is a viable strategy, but all decisions need to be made in the context of…

>often times characters’ entire thing revolve around one move, like a fireball

People absolutely hate when a character's entire thing revolves around one move. They're usually a low-tier character, and when they aren't low-tier they are just annoying to play against.

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#57

Post by starkparker »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #2

I kind of noped out of the fighting game craze when they descended on the arcades in the 90's (?). To my eye they had abandoned the twitchy interactivity I had come to expect playing standard arcade games like Tempest, etc. Rather than a fire button and a spinner you had a joystick plus what amounted to a numpad of buttons. It seemed like maybe a game accountants or payroll managers would enjoy. (To this day, though…

A lot of replies to this feel like they're missing that you're closer to the target audience for this than people already familiar with fighting game conventions. One of the first things researched to establish requirements for this project was compiling and categorizing questions from beginners.

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#58

Post by dmonitor »

grog454 wrote: post #19
coldpie wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to give it a try, Street Fighter 6 is really, really good. Aside from just being an amazingly well thought-out fighting game[1], it's also got a big player base so you'll have plenty of other noobs to play with in the ranked matchmaking mode, and the networking code is perfect[2] so you can just hop on and start having fun. If you do decide to jump in, just remember that you will be terrible at the start.…

The second article mentions delay based and rollback both of which seem to be appropriate for peer to peer graphs, but there is a third option: server authority. I created a game with mechanics very roughly analogous to fighting games (nebulous.io) where there is no client side prediction, no rollback, and a 20hz update loop. Clients just render what the server reports (with some smoothing). I never get complaints ab…

This?

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=software.simpl...

You think this is roughly analogous to a fighting game?

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#59

Post by yamazakiwi »

cultureswitch wrote: post #9
BaculumMeumEst wrote: post #3

One thing that's very tricky about these kind of simplified visual explanations of fighting game mechanics is that you don't capture all the strategic implications of move properties. The visualizations make simple scenarios clear, for example if you block a sweep point blank (or whatever a highly punishable tekken equivalent would be, a snake edge or a hellsweep or whatever), then you are at advantage and can land a…

I think I follow the gist of what you're talking about and it doesn't sound all that advanced at all. Deliberately missing out getting blocked to make the opponent think they have an opening is not a particularly high level play in other games. It still baffles me that traditional 2D fighting games and Tekken in particular are so complex and that it is so hard to even pull off a specific move due to control schemes t…

In Mount & Blade you don't make nearly as many decisions or utilize raw mechanical skill, it is mostly strategy and preparation. Mechanical challenge is part of what makes fighting games, fighting games.

>Compare this with the simplicity of Mount & Blade Warband which achieves greater depth, in 3D, with a very simple and intuitive control scheme.

Most of M&BW depth is outside of the combat system (whereas fighting games are generally only comprised of a combat system) thus making them hard to compare directly. Simplicity is a not a good first principle for developing a successful fighting game combat systems historically. Simple = Less Skill Expression

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#60

Post by yamazakiwi »

RomanAlexander wrote: post #21
jncfhnb wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pulling off moves is very easy. Pulling off specific sequences of moves is not.

That's not true. Geese Howard's pretzel move is very difficult on its own. Even high level players mess up EWGFs. Complicate all this even further by playing in an arcade with a square gate. And not to mention the extreme moves like pentagram input from arcana hearts 3.

Some inputs are hard but I don't see this as a problem. There are many characters in most FG's so I don't see a problem with some characters having challenging or even extremely challenging inputs. Some players enjoy that challenge, and if you don't, you don't have to play that character, you can play one that fits your playstyle.
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