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Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

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Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#41

Post by robertlagrant »

cultureswitch wrote: post #9
BaculumMeumEst wrote: post #3

One thing that's very tricky about these kind of simplified visual explanations of fighting game mechanics is that you don't capture all the strategic implications of move properties. The visualizations make simple scenarios clear, for example if you block a sweep point blank (or whatever a highly punishable tekken equivalent would be, a snake edge or a hellsweep or whatever), then you are at advantage and can land a…

I think I follow the gist of what you're talking about and it doesn't sound all that advanced at all. Deliberately missing out getting blocked to make the opponent think they have an opening is not a particularly high level play in other games. It still baffles me that traditional 2D fighting games and Tekken in particular are so complex and that it is so hard to even pull off a specific move due to control schemes t…

I don't think the game you cite is the same type of game. It's even simpler to control units in Sim City, but that's just because the game isn't about fine-grained, high speed control of one character.

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#42

Post by bluedino »

wodenokoto wrote: post #40
cultureswitch wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I follow the gist of what you're talking about and it doesn't sound all that advanced at all. Deliberately missing out getting blocked to make the opponent think they have an opening is not a particularly high level play in other games. It still baffles me that traditional 2D fighting games and Tekken in particular are so complex and that it is so hard to even pull off a specific move due to control schemes t…

I played a lot of tekken 1, but never enough to join any tournaments (had one heard of any in the internet less early 90s) But what I remember being very special about tekken was how easy and logical the moves where. It was one button, one limb and more or less only buttons that controlled limbs involved in a move was used. It was quite easy to learn many moves without consulting the manual because they flowed well w…

>> I played a lot of tekken 1, but never enough to join any tournaments (had one heard of any in the internet less early 90s)

Our local Aladdin's Castle regularly held tournaments and I had friends who ended up making all the way to the national level through those

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#43

Post by toast0 »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #2

I kind of noped out of the fighting game craze when they descended on the arcades in the 90's (?). To my eye they had abandoned the twitchy interactivity I had come to expect playing standard arcade games like Tempest, etc. Rather than a fire button and a spinner you had a joystick plus what amounted to a numpad of buttons. It seemed like maybe a game accountants or payroll managers would enjoy. (To this day, though…

I think Tekken is 4 buttons, and Neo-Geo is 4 buttons, so I'm not sure your numpad rant quite applies. I've seen some Neo-Geo layouts with a 2x2 layout instead of the traditional swoosh, so I think it would be ok.

Personally, I've got lots of room, so if I were a multi-cade person, I'd build out different machines for different layouts.

Something for classic single joystick games with two buttons on either side (although that might not be perfect for everything, some games had three buttons on one side). Something for trackballs, hopefully a layout that's reasonable for missle command and two player marble madness. Something with three buttons each for four players (guantlet/turtles/nba jam). A 4-button Neo Geo layout, which might be enough for the two player two and three button games too; would need to try and see. A 6-button 2x3 layout. If I played MK, their 6-button layout with run, although since I don't play MK, I might put the pre-run games on the street fighter layout with the column in the middle both being block; definitely saw that in arcades.

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#44

Post by uncletaco »

BaculumMeumEst wrote: post #3

One thing that's very tricky about these kind of simplified visual explanations of fighting game mechanics is that you don't capture all the strategic implications of move properties. The visualizations make simple scenarios clear, for example if you block a sweep point blank (or whatever a highly punishable tekken equivalent would be, a snake edge or a hellsweep or whatever), then you are at advantage and can land a…

Just play Dhalsim boom you can punish the block string with a standing low kick that closes the distance.

Now laugh as they call you anti fun.

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#45

Post by ranting-moth »

SliceOfWaifu wrote: post #25
ranting-moth wrote: post #6

Back in the day me and my buddy spent ages playing Mortal Combat on a PC. I decided to learn all the combos (crazy fast keyboard patterns). The combos gave you disproportional damage wielding power. I spent hours and hours practicing it when we were playing. My buddy won pretty much every single game, while laughing at my combo attempts. Then I mastered it one day. I won every single game. Buddy said this combo shit…

The problem with playing competitive games casually is that the moment one player actually bothers to learn anything about the game, it immediately ruins the experience for the other player if they're unwilling to do the same.

Yep. Even worse when you can pay to get better, like MTG, or Magic The Money Gathering as I'd like to call it.

Once someone in your group starts hunting down those rare (and expensive) cards, everyone else will have to do the same or give up playing.

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#46

Post by uncletaco »

SliceOfWaifu wrote: post #22
jncfhnb wrote: post #17

Tekken feels particularly bad to play if you don’t know what you’re doing imo. It’s the least approachable. Unexpected shoutout to Thems Fighting Herds, the mlp fan spinoff turned OC quadruped fighting game. Regardless of your care for the aesthetics, the single player story was extremely good imo. Enemies were NOT just random CPUs but unique characters with formulaic strategies. Wolf that just does crouching attacks…

Compared to other 3D fighters like SoulCalibur, Dead or Alive, Bloody Roar, etc, Tekken is completely unintuitive for a casual button masher. Tekken, like Virtua Fighter, requires you to sit down in Training Mode for hours just to learn a single character's basic moveset, BnBs, and gameplan. Compare this to 2D fighting games, where all you gotta do is learn the basic Street Fighter 2 movelist, and you can quickly fig…

You know I find that funny. When I want to mash in tekken I just remember each button corresponds to a limb. If I want to do the thingy that uses both legs then press the two leg buttons with a direction. If I want to do a left right left combination I press left right left punch in order. You can mash around with a character to see where it leads you to get really good basic understand imo.

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#47

Post by robertlagrant »

jncfhnb wrote: post #30
ZephyrBlu wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes no sense. For one, a large component of real-time games is mechanics and execution. Also, the idea of being able to mindlessly "flowchart" a real-time game at a competitive level is absurd. It assumes a non-interactive opponent. If it was true there would be no such thing as yomi. There are also a lot of other fundamental differences around resource management, opponent interaction, etc. They are only simi…

Oh please. You can absolutely flow chart fighting games. That is in fact the entire concept behind combos- sequences of moves that your opponent can’t do anything during outside of more modern combo breaker mechanics. Yeah there’s niche dynamic considerations for making these combos work for slightly different distances and weights and heights and power meters and whatever. But for 99% of the player base you’re going…

You can flow chart chess games as well. It's just reductive to think that's all there is to it.

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#48

Post by taneq »

BaculumMeumEst wrote: post #3

One thing that's very tricky about these kind of simplified visual explanations of fighting game mechanics is that you don't capture all the strategic implications of move properties. The visualizations make simple scenarios clear, for example if you block a sweep point blank (or whatever a highly punishable tekken equivalent would be, a snake edge or a hellsweep or whatever), then you are at advantage and can land a…

If you’re interested in this, can I recommend Dave Sirlin’s excellent “Playing To Win” series? One of the few articles that I’ve read that permanently changed the way I think about games, both from the player’s and the designer’s point of view.

Edit: https://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win This is the overview but read the whole thing start to end, seriously.

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#49

Post by scubbo »

ranting-moth wrote: post #45
SliceOfWaifu wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with playing competitive games casually is that the moment one player actually bothers to learn anything about the game, it immediately ruins the experience for the other player if they're unwilling to do the same.

Yep. Even worse when you can pay to get better, like MTG, or Magic The Money Gathering as I'd like to call it. Once someone in your group starts hunting down those rare (and expensive) cards, everyone else will have to do the same or give up playing.

Thankfully, printer ink (just about) remains cheaper than Magic cards.

Re: Visualizing fighting game mechanics (2020)

#50

Post by Blackthorn »

SliceOfWaifu wrote: post #18
cultureswitch wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I follow the gist of what you're talking about and it doesn't sound all that advanced at all. Deliberately missing out getting blocked to make the opponent think they have an opening is not a particularly high level play in other games. It still baffles me that traditional 2D fighting games and Tekken in particular are so complex and that it is so hard to even pull off a specific move due to control schemes t…

Motion inputs aren't arbitrarily difficult. They're intrinsically tied to the game's balance. Basic special uppercut moves like the Shoryuken use the forward->down->downforward motion to ensure the player cannot hold back to block during the motion. The player must commit to use their strong special uppercut move frames before they've actually unleashed it. Guile's Sonic Boom projectile requires the player to "charge…

Street fighter isn't bad at all but some games and some characters are just absurd for no particular reason. Ivy in later Soul Calibur games is a good example, she has two command throws with pointlessly arcane inputs that even have a second, better mode when you do them frame perfect. So everyone who plays Ivy just grinds and grinds until they can do it in their sleep. There's no particular balance reason for that (also Soul Calibur has a block button so the usual balance rules don't apply), it's just a "you must be this tall to play this character" barrier.
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