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Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

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Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#421

Post by robertlagrant »

10u152 wrote: post #404
gnfargbl wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The logic here is that if an industry can only be made safe with strict PPE standards, but the market dynamics make it difficult to ensure compliance with those standards, then it is OK to ban the industry. That seems a pretty concerning stance for small businesses. What's next? Ban microbreweries because they don't properly manage the risks of CO2 asphyxiation? Ban small-shop mechanics because they routinely get bra…

They’re not banning businesses. They’re banning a product which is causing deaths. Switch to a alternate product. It’s the same in your analogy of banning a toxic brake fluid.

> They’re banning a product which is causing deaths

According to the link in the grandparent comment, I think it was the production process that they didn't want the expense of enforcing safety standards on. Not the end product itself. Hence the comment about banning an industry.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#422

Post by gwnywg »

unclekev wrote: post #102

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered sto…

I came to the same conclusion.

Year ago I was cleaning my flat after renovation, there was lots of dust settled everywhere and my first thought was - how do I protect my lungs? There were many one-time-use face masks in hardware store, but those masks did not look like good enough- mainly because of lack of filter. So I bought slightly more expensive aparatus with proper filters. Yet, trademen who were doing the work did not care, they were not wearing anything to prevent dust from being inhaled. I felt so bad for them that I was vacuuming whole place each evening when they were gone (including walls), so at least they would start with no dust... Still, I was wondering how much of their future suffer will be because I was not asking them to protect themselves...

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#424

Post by Ekaros »

cm2187 wrote: post #408
10u152 wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re not banning businesses. They’re banning a product which is causing deaths. Switch to a alternate product. It’s the same in your analogy of banning a toxic brake fluid.

It’s like banning chemical products because they are causing death if not handled properly. We would not have an industrialised world if we went that way.

We have for example banned CFCs which are entirely harmless if used properly in properly and fully maintained equipment with proper capturing at end of lifetime...

That did not happen, so we banned them. I see no reason that we could not replace engineered stone with multiple other things.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#425

Post by robertlagrant »

cyanydeez wrote: post #380
kortilla wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criminal liability is not “let the market forces duke it out” in any meaningful sense.

in capitalism, criminal liability is still a cost.

In non-capitalism as well. Except then the perpetrators are less likely to go to jail, as they're probably the ones in power.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#426

Post by kristofferR »

stephen_g wrote: post #178
unclekev wrote: post #102

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered sto…

It’s incredible how bad tradies are at PPE. When my solar panels were being installed on my house, the electrician was happily about to drill through asbestos cement eave lining before I stopped him, and at least made him put on a disposable P2 respirator mask I had lying around. But he still released asbestos fibres into the air and the ceiling cavity where his colleagues were working, and will have got it on his cl…

NRK had a great article about this recently:

https://www.nrk.no/vestland/xl/kvartsstovet-som-gjer-folk-sj...

Seems to work fine in Google Translate.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#427

Post by shkkmo »

kortilla wrote: post #371
Incipient wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We really don't have the same overt paid lobbying here (aka bribery) that you have in the US. Don't get me wrong our politicians are just as morally bankrupt and self-serving, but it doesn't happen at the same coordinated scale.

Lobbying and bribery are not the same at all. Equivocating them severely downplays the seriousness of bribery. Lobbying means someone is trying to influence the government through things as simple as advertising campaigns. Those exist in AU.

Advertising is PR, not lobbying.

Lobbying often involves implicit or explicit offers of campaign funding, PAC support/opposition, and gifts that skirt the edge of what is legally bribery.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#428

Post by [deleted] »

Astraco wrote: post #123
WillPostForFood wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a little more mixed than that. Granite is generally cheaper and has better heat resistance. Granite is porous, so it stains and needs sealing every year or two. Quartz/artificial takes less maintenance, is a little stronger, so it is more scratch resistant.

A polished granite countertop has not pores. Most artificial stones use epoxy, scratches easily an easier to break.

[deleted]

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#429

Post by bjt »

There are more options than just "ban" and "don't ban".

You could pass a law imposing strict liability all the way up the supply chain, up to and including the importers.

If a worker gets sick, they could sue for damages, maybe even punitive damages, from their employer, any middlemen, and the importer.

If you align the incentives right, companies will figure out how to enforce PPE usage.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#430

Post by ghiculescu »

shkkmo wrote: post #427
kortilla wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lobbying and bribery are not the same at all. Equivocating them severely downplays the seriousness of bribery. Lobbying means someone is trying to influence the government through things as simple as advertising campaigns. Those exist in AU.

Advertising is PR, not lobbying. Lobbying often involves implicit or explicit offers of campaign funding, PAC support/opposition, and gifts that skirt the edge of what is legally bribery.

lol we certainly have lobbying in Australia, they just apparently keep a lower profile than American lobbyists do.
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