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Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

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Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#361

Post by 2muchcoffeeman »

hereme888 wrote: post #339
Hawxy wrote: post #169

It's very much worth reading the full reasoning within the SafeWork decision (page 56): https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/202... SafeWork's view is that the industry is too much of a non-compliant mess to recommend any other option apart from a complete ban.

Would you think that imposing heavy fines, and perhaps even criminal penalties when workers are not properly informed, would be a better alternative to banning an economically advantageous product?

Not informed? You think that trades people were not properly informed to wear PPE at all times? I’m have a3D printer as a hobby and I wear all the PPE when sanding or spray painting.

These people know perfectly well they need to take precautions.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#362

Post by isilofi »

umvi wrote: post #17

Seems like you should ban the manufacturing methods, not the end product. Like, if I invent a way to safely manufacture and do on-site adjustments of engineered stone, shouldn't I be rewarded by the market for it? The material itself is not harmful, just breathing the dust of it is, which can be said of a lot of things in a common household.

Yes. They should have just banned or limited dry cutting. Cutting stone wet, with running water, produces practically no dust whatsoever.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#363

Post by aaronmdjones »

doingtheiroming wrote: post #326

I often observe that PPE compliance in the U.K. is dramatically better than it is on the continent where I live. In part I think that’s a result of the concentration of the building contractor business and the (relatively) strong enforcement of workplace regulation at sites of large construction projects. You’d be shocked in the U.K. if you saw someone scaffolding a building without a helmet. In the EU, you’re shocke…

I live in the UK and used to be an electrician. What you say is for the most part true; on any commercial or industrial site or construction project, the building or site manager is going to come down hard on you if you're not using appropriate PPE. It's a liability and ass-covering thing: if you get injured (or indeed killed), even if it's entirely your fault and would have been avoided by using PPE, the manager is liable, and HSE will bury them. They know this, and they will expel you from the site if you don't comply.

That said, it's all a wash in residential. I've seen plenty of plumbers and heating engineers drilling walls without any eye or ear protection. I've seen plenty of heating engineers soldering copper pipes without a mask and in poor ventilation (e.g. tight cupboards). I've even seen other electricians installing meter tails into a live supply without any gloves, standing on conductive surfaces like surface drainage grates.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#364

Post by kortilla »

rtpg wrote: post #359
hereme888 wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you think that imposing heavy fines, and perhaps even criminal penalties when workers are not properly informed, would be a better alternative to banning an economically advantageous product?

Not to be too glib but I think here the reasoning is that letting market forces duke it out (even with fines and penalties) is considered to not be fast enough compared to the number of people whose health is being put at risk. Like here there are a bunch of people who have lung cancer now. And there's probably a bunch more who will get it from doing all the work up until now. And this has been in the news for a whil…

Criminal liability is not “let the market forces duke it out” in any meaningful sense.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#365

Post by [deleted] »

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #361
hereme888 wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you think that imposing heavy fines, and perhaps even criminal penalties when workers are not properly informed, would be a better alternative to banning an economically advantageous product?

Not informed? You think that trades people were not properly informed to wear PPE at all times? I’m have a3D printer as a hobby and I wear all the PPE when sanding or spray painting. These people know perfectly well they need to take precautions.

[deleted]

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#366

Post by kortilla »

mitemte wrote: post #358
hereme888 wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you think that imposing heavy fines, and perhaps even criminal penalties when workers are not properly informed, would be a better alternative to banning an economically advantageous product?

This is probably going to cause the price of large format porcelain bench tops down. They have less silica content than artificial stone and granite. I believe they are also cut to size off-site.

You mean up, right? Forcing demand into a product drives the price up.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#368

Post by sjy »

hereme888 wrote: post #339
Hawxy wrote: post #169

It's very much worth reading the full reasoning within the SafeWork decision (page 56): https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/202... SafeWork's view is that the industry is too much of a non-compliant mess to recommend any other option apart from a complete ban.

Would you think that imposing heavy fines, and perhaps even criminal penalties when workers are not properly informed, would be a better alternative to banning an economically advantageous product?

This is addressed in the linked source, although that wouldn’t be obvious if you’re not familiar with Australian work health and safety law:

> the re-emergence of silicosis in engineered stone workers is also due to a failure of compliance with existing WHS laws … PCBUs [persons conducting a business or undertaking, who are subject to WHS laws] have not done all that is reasonably practicable to eliminate or minimise those risks, and workers have not taken reasonable care for their own health and safety and that of others [which is a criminal offence]. Finally, there has been insufficient compliance and enforcement actions by WHS regulators to drive behaviour change in the sector … A lower silica content engineered stone is not expected to result in improvements in compliance. The features of the sector that have contributed to the current levels of non-compliance remain – the sector is comprised of mostly small businesses with few barriers to entry and a lower understanding of WHS obligations.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#369

Post by kortilla »

katbyte wrote: post #305
robocat wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weirdly enough, The article hints that the legislation won't ban natural stone. What alternatives are there to engineered stone? * Natural stone

It’s not weird. Natural stone has been used forever and it was only after engineered stone entered the market they started to see a sharp rise in silicosis cases. Why ban a product that wasn’t causing the problem?

What would the base rate of silicosis be if natural stone work was banned too?

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#370

Post by junaru »

kortilla wrote: post #364
rtpg wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to be too glib but I think here the reasoning is that letting market forces duke it out (even with fines and penalties) is considered to not be fast enough compared to the number of people whose health is being put at risk. Like here there are a bunch of people who have lung cancer now. And there's probably a bunch more who will get it from doing all the work up until now. And this has been in the news for a whil…

Criminal liability is not “let the market forces duke it out” in any meaningful sense.

Your comments puts cheaper kitchen tables above potential lifelong worker health issues.

No amount of 'criminal liability' will bring back loved ones.

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